Episode 10 - Dessa
Welcome to the loadout. I'm your host, Ashanti Abdulla. In each week, we take you behind the scenes of the live music industry From touring tips and industry insights to candid conversations with artists, managers, and music professionals, we uncover the stories and strategies that make live performances unforgettable. Whether you're an artist, a tour manager, or just a live music enthusiast, this podcast is your backstage pass to the world of touring and live events. Today, I'm really excited for our cast, Dessa.
Speaker 1:You've heard of her as a member of Doomtree, but she's also an accomplished author with her book My Own Devices earning critical acclaim, and she's hosted the BBC's Deeply Human podcast. Today, we're gonna talk about how she balances writing, music, and broadcasting,
Speaker 2:and what keeps her motivated across these different creative fields.
Speaker 1:Let's get into the show. I'm motivated across these different creative fields. Let's get into the show. Dessa, how are you? I'm good.
Speaker 1:I'm good. The casual answer
Speaker 2:is good, man. How are you? The honest thing is like, pretty good. I think, like, a sunny day helps for me, like, to an extraordinary extent, like, how I think my entire life is going.
Speaker 1:Totally agree. Although I do have day you know, living in the bay, I do have like, it's been so sunny lately. I I don't know. I go the other way sometimes too. I'm gonna be honest with you.
Speaker 1:Like, I'm, like, I need some rain.
Speaker 2:Not sound very generous. Like, I don't know. I just I have so much health and well-being, and I'm so satisfied that sometimes I'm like, too happy. And I have to, like, roll back.
Speaker 1:No. When I lived in I used to live in Phoenix. Right? And when I lived down there, it literally was sunny so many days that I got depressed. Like, I got depressed because it I was, like, woah.
Speaker 1:There is no change of anything? Like, this is too much, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's funny. When you say Phoenix, now I'm really sympathetic to it. But that's also Yeah. More of heat and, you know, just unrelenting.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It is unbelievably unrelenting. And although I will say Phoenix has changed quite a bit. I've been down there a few times. It's a much more beautiful place than it was 20 years ago.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:But I hated every moment of it. I'm just gonna
Speaker 2:be honest with you.
Speaker 1:I was so happy to get the hell out of there. I I'm really stoked to have you on mainly because we've been in, like, around each other's orbit for quite some time. I don't think we've ever sat down and had a conversation before, so I'm super excited to just chop it up with you, number 1. And I'm really thankful that you were like, yeah. I'll hop on with you, and we got this done pretty quickly.
Speaker 2:Totally game. I feel like we've been half a degree of separation for 20 years and haven't
Speaker 1:At a minimum. Definitely at a minimum. Might maybe even more that we're, like, unaware of. Yeah. I know this is the, like you know, we'll do the qualifying question, which is I mean I I mean, look, you built a pretty incredible career from, like, back in the early 2000 and to where you're at right now.
Speaker 1:It's unbelievable. Just kinda looking through things that maybe I wasn't even fully aware of, it's it's kinda mind blowing. But taking it back to the beginning, like, how did you like, where? How? How did this all start?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, I think probably like a lot of people, the parameters of my career have sort of been set by the walls that I tried to push over and couldn't quite push down. Like, this is what I really want, and I can't get it. So what's the closest thing I can do? Right.
Speaker 2:When I was yeah. I did go to college in in Minnesota. I went to the University of Minnesota, and I studied, studied philosophy there, which I dug. I love that. I love the education, and it still changes the way I think about the world.
Speaker 2:And it doesn't really set you up for a clear professional trajectory.
Speaker 1:Right? Never never does. Right?
Speaker 2:So I I had wanted to be like a creative writer. I I loved, I loved personal essays, which sound drier than they are. It's just like true stories, but, you know, that are written with all the skills that you use to write fiction and start stories. Suspense and humor, character development, blah blah blah. I loved that form.
Speaker 2:I wrote a bunch of essays and sent them out and then, like, never heard back from absolutely anybody. So, like, I I was making zero traction trying to figure out, like, okay. If I if I came up in Minnesota, like and the magazines that I knew about that were, like, literary and cool. Mhmm. Now we're on the East Coast, and and they wouldn't write me back.
Speaker 2:What's the thing? What's what's the intermediary step? How do you get started? And I'd had a bad breakup, and my roommate at the time, Jacqueline, who was, like, exponentially hipper than I was, like, we managed. She was like, you need to put some payers out.
Speaker 2:Like, you cannot live in your bedroom like this. You know? Come on. I'm taking you out. And she took me to a poetry slam.
Speaker 1:Oh, nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, that was Wait.
Speaker 1:Were, like, in Minneapolis or, like, at school
Speaker 2:or like Saint Paul? It was like, Kieran's Irish Pub.
Speaker 1:Oh my lord.
Speaker 2:I can't remember what it was. Hello. And while we were there, she was like, yo. You know, I think I think you could do this. And I was like, I think I could do this.
Speaker 2:And so went back, you know, the next month I had and and slammed, and I can we swear? We could swear. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Of course. You
Speaker 2:can do
Speaker 1:whatever the fuck you want.
Speaker 2:The fuck we want. So I rolled up, and I, you know, I'd prepared my poems or whatever and won and thought I was, like, absolutely hot shit. I was feeling myself and then was, like, very quickly informed that, like, all of the good poets are out of town on tour. So, like
Speaker 1:Oh, boy.
Speaker 2:That y'all that you think you're on is real. Elevation's real modest right now. But for me, that was the you know, there was such an overlap then. That was still, like, deaf poetry jam on HBO. There's such an overlap of, like, the hip hop communities and, you know, everybody from, like, Saul Williams who kinda worked in both worlds and Yeah.
Speaker 2:Most deaf obviously was was involved in that community and Sage Francis. So it's like seeing performers who were doing hip hop stuff, but at first in this unaccompanied way. It was my first, like, entree into performance. So then there, there was a rapper in the room who was like, yo. You know, would you do this do this with my over some beats that I've got in building a a group?
Speaker 2:And that seemed like, is this legit? And I texted her. Like, is this guy creepy? She was like, no. No.
Speaker 2:He's cool. I was like, okay. Let's go. So, yeah, that was my couldn't be a writer. Was a medium slam artist and then started, you know, starting rapping.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Through the I don't know. Like, I got I got some good our scene in Minneapolis was so fertile. Like, there was just a lot of a lot of pretty generous artists in that community who were game to be like, hey. You are not phenomenal, and Right.
Speaker 2:You got potential. Like, that's cool. Right. I'm gonna kick it.
Speaker 1:Right. I think the great the good rush to the to roast to the top, obviously. I think that happens in any, like, competitive market. Right?
Speaker 2:Well, when you still are
Speaker 1:like, you. The good people kinda rose to the top Oh,
Speaker 2:good people.
Speaker 1:With that. Yeah. Yep. I'm not saying that there aren't people that weren't great that, like, didn't end up getting a shot at it. But, you know, there's obviously multiple reasons why.
Speaker 1:Right? So there's a little bit of luck that comes along with some of that stuff too. 100%. Having the right people around you, blah blah blah blah blah. But at the very least, you'd probably need to be good.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think also
Speaker 1:I mean,
Speaker 2:I well, I, like, taught for a while, and I say this a lot in classes, but I, you know, I understood, like, music to be, like, the NFL or something. Like, it was just so so competitive that it just felt like, man, you had better be, like, the top 10th of 1 percentile to do anything in it. Yeah. And it's really surprised me how much, like, being likable and kind actually matters.
Speaker 1:So much. It goes so far. Yeah. It goes so far. It goes so far.
Speaker 1:I mean, we we talk about that a lot on this podcast of, like, when you're touring and, like, the different venues you go to and things like that. And just, like, being happy to be there, because you should be, like, go so far with the people that you end up working with and these crunchy old sound dudes that just, like, have no interest in, like, dealing with the rapper. They wanna do a band. Even that even they're just all over the place. And, like, they, you know, it goes a really long way.
Speaker 1:And that is true. That is true. I mean, there has to be, clearly, there has to be something. Right? Something about you.
Speaker 1:It could just be who you are. It could be the talent that you have around, you know, music or whatever the deal is. But, yes, being a wonderful person goes a really long way. I totally agree with that a 1000%.
Speaker 2:Even yeah. Like, now, you know, when I'm getting ready to go on the road and I'm and I'm hiring musicians, it's like, okay. Well, you can obviously shred your phenomenal Yeah. Pianist. You know?
Speaker 2:But I spend an hour and a half on the stage with you, and I spent 8 hours in the band with
Speaker 1:you. So, like Yep.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Personal.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Mhmm. It's a big it's a big deal. I have had those discussions, you know, outside of Turnwell. I run San Francisco Supply, which management company.
Speaker 1:Manage some people here on here and there. Mike is probably the main person, that that we work with right now. But, we've had some of those discussions recently just because he is now starting to okay, things are happening in the background that I can't talk about right now, but things things are happening. Right? So, like, we're starting to have those discussions around, you know, well, you we do know this is out there.
Speaker 1:He's touring in in Europe this, this Yes. This December. But, like, explaining to him, like, how that works and how that could be a major problem if that if the right people aren't. It's a lot. There's a lot that goes into touring.
Speaker 1:I think people just kinda hop into it, and they're like, man. I then again, we did too, but we learned. We learned along
Speaker 2:the way. And, also, I think it's so much, like, informal apprenticeship. Like, somebody taught me anyway. Yo. This is what a day sheet is.
Speaker 2:This is what Van Call is. It's not cute to be late. Like, it's really not cute. You know what I mean? This is how like, the systems and it's funny because in some ways, I feel like, you know, so much of industry like, business industry, you've got best practice books.
Speaker 2:Right? Yep. I feel like the way that the generational knowledge of how to tour passes, so much of that is hand is like the way that hopscotch rhymes. Like, the way that I do old Dutch rhymes. Like, there's no handbook.
Speaker 2:It was just like twirl.
Speaker 1:Yep. 1000%.
Speaker 2:I know. Go ahead.
Speaker 1:Thousand%. I'm gonna shamelessly plug Turnwell because that was kind of the idea. Right? Like, we we could obviously service, like, large Kendrick Lamar size or or tours with Turnwheel. But for that brand new artist that goes out, there's all these things in here that you're like, wait a minute.
Speaker 1:This is a check. Oh, shit. I gotta think about that too. Yeah. Like, that's kinda why we built it so we could create a best practice for for the, for the market for people that are out touring.
Speaker 1:Because, ultimately, you know as well as I do, this is a full time business. It's its own thing, and you gotta be serious about it. These these day sheets and and Van Call, all this stuff, it's super important.
Speaker 2:And sloppiness cost money. You know, when you say you're
Speaker 1:It costs a lot of money. It costs a lot of money. Sorry. Going back to total sidebar. Going back to you.
Speaker 1:Going back to you. You're known for, like, super powerful lyricism, and blending genres, things of that nature. When you approach songwriting, how how do you approach it? Is it, like, lyrics first, melody, another element? Like, how is this how do these ideas come to you?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'd say for me, very often, it's like little scraps of language. You know? So little tiny not whole verses. Sometimes even just an image, 2 words together. Sometimes, you know, a 2 bar or whatever, a couplet.
Speaker 2:And I'll write those pieces down, and then it's not until I've got music that I'll usually play it on repeat and sort of review those scraps. You know what I mean? To see what can be assembled into a whole lyrics. And that would be the time at which I start thinking melodies too. Yeah.
Speaker 2:For me, like, god, the idea of coming up with melody. You know, because even rap verse, I was talking to my musical director who's also an MC, Jelly, Joshua Williams. And I was talking, like, you know, we don't notate it, and there's no reason to, but rap versus have melodies. Like, if you were to pitch 1 up half a step and then put it back on the beat, it would sound truly.
Speaker 1:Completely different. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You're wrong. We would not Exactly. You know? And so even if it's, you know, only operating within, like, I don't know, 2 or 3 notes, that's how that would be the time when I start to figure out melodies is the beat running. And sometimes I'll describe it like paleontology.
Speaker 2:Like, I've got all these tiny little dino bones, and now I gotta figure out, like, where the, you know, pterodactyl is. You know?
Speaker 1:Right. How they all fit together.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Yeah. I
Speaker 1:always I tell everybody this that, is as talented as you are, and I'm gonna never stop. I just don't have it. I wish I did. I wish I knew, but I oh, that kinda talent? 0%.
Speaker 1:I can't even draw a straight line. Anything artistic is never gonna happen for me. Right? I learned that pretty early on, which is why I sat my ass down in the business side of things. So I was like, you're just not good at this.
Speaker 1:But I I envy it. I definitely do
Speaker 2:need it. Somewhere that like composition notebooks, the old
Speaker 1:We're not gonna talk about what's out there because there probably is stuff out there. Right? But no one needs to know about these things. But yeah. I mean, I definitely, like, I definitely envy it.
Speaker 1:I do get luckily, get to spend a lot of time in the studio,
Speaker 2:a lot of
Speaker 1:time with a lot of really cool people, and put my little thoughts around things, which apparently people think are good thoughts.
Speaker 2:Like, often, like, production or, like, you
Speaker 1:know, like Yeah. On the production side of it. Like, working with different artists when they're in the studio and, you know, working with producers, working with a bunch of different people. So that's that, like, that's how I get my creative outlet in it for sure. But it blows my mind, like, how you and other people think about these things.
Speaker 1:It's I don't know. It's pretty amazing. Going into, talking about touring, actually. I mean, you've toured you tour. It's real.
Speaker 1:It's like what you do. How's your relationship, like, changed with it? It's like from when you first started to, like, how it is now.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think I think for me, tour has been my favorite part of the job for a lot of years and my least favorite part of the job.
Speaker 1:About to say I'm very surprised by that. Most people hate it.
Speaker 2:Do most people hate it?
Speaker 1:I feel like most people hate it that I talk to that I talk to. I could be wrong. But most people I'm around, there's not their favorite thing to do at all. You know? But I think it's because we're all old.
Speaker 1:Yes. So that
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It'd be different. I think if everyone I knew is younger maybe. Yeah. But, like, everyone's old, so no one likes it anymore. But Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know?
Speaker 2:I I think though even, like, you know, even when I was in my twenties, like, I love I do love travel, just generally. And, obviously, the idea is like, oh, wow. I could you know, my my work, right, would would bring me around to to be all these and also not as a vacationer because I think I I feel like, I don't know, class guilt, I think. Like, if you go to a country and you're just kicking it at a hotel with people who are paid to make you feel like, that doesn't that doesn't seem like that that might be a good, like, restart every once in a while. Right?
Speaker 2:But that's not seeing the world. That's pain treatment. And Right. And so the idea of, like, being able to travel and, like, work with people in all these different countries.
Speaker 1:You know
Speaker 2:what I mean? And so for that day, you're kinda, like, in the mix a little bit. That part of love. I get irritated and fussy about the fact that, like, I just I just sleep is so tough. Not because, like, oh, I can't sleep, although it's also true, but because, like, that lifestyle is it's built for business.
Speaker 2:It's not built for owls. You know? And so the idea of, like, checking into the hotel at 2 and van call at 9, like, I'm over that. So for me, in the beginning, I think also probably I would have been too shy to say that I didn't love it because there is definitely at least when I started, there was definitely that culture of, like, you ain't hungry then. Like, if
Speaker 1:you Yeah. If you weren't hungry
Speaker 2:about one thing. And then you you know what I mean? You're not somehow, like, living up to the constant ready to go. I got I remember being challenged like, do you have CDs in your backpack? Because you got a serial rapper if you don't to to hand in hand over to, like it was a different silly time.
Speaker 1:And it's totally like that's totally like some dumbass sales managers, like, maneuver on some young salesperson right now. Like, do you have business cards on you? Because if you don't, you're not serious about being a sales per you know what I mean? Like
Speaker 2:It's so yeah. It's real laughable. But, you know, there was there was it was tied into your personality in a different way. You know? Like, underground hip hop meant that you had to have, like, headphones and a hoodie on in bed.
Speaker 2:Definitely. And you couldn't be listening to pop music and everybody did seriously. Like, you know Definitely. Yep.
Speaker 1:But so you you, you do love it. You don't love it, but you do love it. Yeah. I maybe the reason why I don't like it as much Yeah. Anymore is because I'm obviously if I'm on the road, which I still do from time to time, I still end up on the road.
Speaker 1:And if I am on the road, it's usually from it's from the all work side. Like, there's no fun for this guy right here. You know what I mean? It's like all work, which is fine. Like, I I I'm I I would I'd be kidding myself if I didn't say that I didn't like it a little bit.
Speaker 1:I do like spending the time with my friends and the people that I'm out with, and even people that I don't know and meeting new people. You meet so many new people all the time. It's so much fun. But but, yeah, I'm usually the one setting up the time and having to be there at the time and doing the time and you know what I mean? So it's not as fun, from from my side of it.
Speaker 1:Days off are always nice, and I try to schedule things so people get a little bit of time to see things when they're in town.
Speaker 2:That's cool.
Speaker 1:But there is something that you do get connected to everywhere you go, which is, like, the music industry in that country. Like, the people come out to these things, and that's always the fun part, is making those connections. Because you know as well as I do, you might make a connection in 2,005 that is
Speaker 2:a
Speaker 1:completely different connection in 2020. You know what I mean? That's pretty
Speaker 2:cool. I mean, on this call even. I mean, you know, there's been a lot of mileage, I'm sure, between the first time that between the roles that we're filling now and the first time between the roles that we're filling now and the first time Exactly. Names crossed
Speaker 1:one another's orbit. Yeah.
Speaker 2:A 1000%. A 1000%. Who became who now works in digital distribution, you know,
Speaker 1:and the so
Speaker 2:and so who's now in ANR. Yeah.
Speaker 1:When they were still acting. Stick around this. Like, I quit. I quit, like, 9 years ago.
Speaker 2:What'd you
Speaker 1:do? I'm done. Nothing. I was, like, I'm not doing music. F this.
Speaker 1:I'm done with this. And then I went and built a fucking music company, like, immediately. Like, I was We don't go away. It's not a it doesn't matter how much we try to pretend like this
Speaker 2:is gonna work. Really retired?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Upset.
Speaker 2:And then I think I'm like, I'm done. That was the last one. If that was the last one, I'm good. And then I'm like, this thing's kinda cool, though. You know?
Speaker 1:I mean, I was definitely done managing.
Speaker 2:There was no way
Speaker 1:I was ever gonna do that again, and then here we are.
Speaker 2:It's weird. Sometimes it's like that about 2 or 2. Like, I think about it when I'm looking at the routing, then I love to, but I haven't left. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:And so I end up, like, you know, that council don't grocery shop hungry?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 2:So here I am in my comfortable chair. I'm like, maybe we could hit well, hold on. Let me just pull up a map. And as soon as I say, let hold on. Let me just pull up a map.
Speaker 2:Like, everything's posed because I'm trying to add filler case for no reason.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. I would be shooting myself in the foot if I was bucking your tourist for sure. Who is you got 8 UTA is dealing with your stuff. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm with you. Awesome. They're good group of group good group of people over there. I really like them. Cool.
Speaker 1:It it can be exhausting. Actually, talking about that drawing can be exhausting. How do, like, how do you may maintain your energy?
Speaker 2:I mean, I the honest answer is occasionally, I don't. Like, occasionally, I just like, I lost my voice at the beginning of this year.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which I haven't done like that before. I've gotten raspy for sure. And maybe once or twice, I've had to be like, I just don't have enough to put on the show. Like, I canceled the one I remember being, I don't know, like, 29 or something, canceling a one off in Chicago and, like, losing sleep over it just so I didn't have the voice. This time, it was heavy.
Speaker 2:And I was like, yeah. That's that's part of it. Right? It's like for however committed and however hungry you are, like, you are also, like, a machine made out of meat that needs, like, sleep and
Speaker 1:sunlight, all that stuff.
Speaker 2:So I would say that the the ways that I do try to manage it is, like, I don't do the full country anymore. Like Mhmm. That noise. Like, I not you know, when I I'm making a butterfly gesture with my finger because, you know, it used to be that starting out in Minneapolis, you could kinda do the country in 2 wings. You know?
Speaker 2:Like, no one else would cause down the other. For us, anyway, that took something like 56 days.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And that's a big no thank you for young that I mean, like, if if somehow something were to pop like crazy and I was in at a beautiful bus and there were days between shows, but, like, barring miraculous intervention, for me, like, I like doing little short bursts and then coming home. You know? So part of it isn't just Yeah. Yeah. Like, planning how the routing works is a big deal too.
Speaker 2:I don't like to spend more than 6 or 7 hours in the car anymore. Whereas I think, you know, on occasion, we were doing these big overnight drives in the car, and, you know, the guys would pull over and we'd catch a few hours in a Walmart Walmart parking lot or whatever.
Speaker 1:And Yeah. I think that always that can be the tough thing for fans that are coming to see shows.
Speaker 2:They're not getting out. Fun.
Speaker 1:That's no. That's like the yeah. I mean, they paid the money. They're there for that hour. They wanna see something, and they don't realize that, like, you spent most of your time in the car.
Speaker 1:You spend an hour and a half there, you know. So it's like, you gotta work together on this. You know what I mean? Sometimes it's not gonna be, you know, as perfect as you think. So I I I totally agree with that.
Speaker 1:I I had someone reach out to me. I won't get into the details of who it was, but they're a pretty big artist. And they were like, hey. I know you don't usually do this, but we really need your help. Somebody fell through.
Speaker 1:Would you be interested in, TM ing a tour? And I'm like, I don't know. They're like, we could pay you double you know, it's a whole long courting process. And they sent me the routing, and I was like, absolutely not. There was one day off.
Speaker 1:There was one day off
Speaker 2:How many, like, bro?
Speaker 1:51 days. One day. I was like, absolutely not. Now granted, it was 2 King Airs with an additional I mean, it was a pretty big tour, but I was like
Speaker 2:Tell me you don't have to tell me what it was, but kinda just follow ups here. I just wanna make sure I understand. You're saying 51 days.
Speaker 1:51 days with one day off.
Speaker 2:Were some of those, like and now we're gonna play 7 nights all in the same city?
Speaker 1:No. There was only 1 with 2 nights. Sorry. So that technically would be because there was 1 with 2 nights in the same city, but the rest was all, like it was the most ridiculous tour I've ever seen. And I was like, I don't, Is it hip hop?
Speaker 1:Right? It was rap. Well, kind of. Yeah. It was rap.
Speaker 1:And I was like, I don't know like, have you done this before? Like, is this how you guys tour? And they were like, and you're gonna like, long They had, like, some big people on the tour, and they're like, and we need you to, like, babysit them. And I was like, absolutely not. This is not what I do.
Speaker 1:Absolutely not. I don't know how anyone does that. I don't know how, like I mean, I guess if you have to make the money, you have to make the money, but that's crazy to me. There's no way.
Speaker 2:I've never heard that. I'll be out like and I I complain about it. So, like, I'm at the point where I'm like, I caught a fish this big. Like, I will talk about my thing. I've never heard of anything like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We would
Speaker 1:we would pretty insane.
Speaker 2:For 8 days running, but we wouldn't do 26 days running. That's insane.
Speaker 1:And it was, like, around Christmas and Thanksgiving. It was, like, the craziest thing I'd ever seen in my life. I was like, this makes no sense.
Speaker 2:I wonder if I honestly did that tour make it? Like, did you follow? Oh,
Speaker 1:that tour happened. Oh, yeah. That tour happened, and it and it went swimmingly. I'll tell you who it was offline just because because once I tell you, you'll be like, oh, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. And then, you know, thinking about time my time at Rhymesayers, I remember Ace would do 2 weeks on, 1 week off. So he would so he would do, like let's say he did, like, a, like, a did, like, 6 weeks of touring, but he would do it over however many weeks because he would do 2 weeks in one region, then he'd go home for a week.
Speaker 2:Then he'd
Speaker 1:go do 2 weeks in another region, then go home for a week, and then go do you know, like, that was his that was his move. And I think he was onto something because that was kinda early, and we talked all kinda trash about him doing it and being like, dude, you're wasting money, and now it makes so much sense. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Totally with you.
Speaker 1:It makes so much sense. You you have, like I don't know. How many live shows do you think you have under your belt? A bajillion?
Speaker 2:Oh, gosh. I've never really done the math. I mean, I you know, I always felt like I was only maybe like, some of the hard touring cats that were, you know, in our kind of general circle. I mean, they were doing what do they call it? Like, a hot 100 when you have a year where you do a hot some of them were messing like, flirting with 200 shows.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. It's insane.
Speaker 2:That's never been me. Like, I'm much more, like, you know, 75 or 80 on an album year. Like, it's great great plenty for me. So
Speaker 1:Yeah. How do you keep, like, doing that many shows? How do you keep them feeling? Like, what do you do?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Fresh and engaging. Do I don't do as I don't do that many anymore. Like, I think Mhmm. I think, also, this is different, you know, when you're running your own ship, obviously, because your artistic decisions are yours to make and then reap the successes or, you know, like, mourn your humiliating failures.
Speaker 2:All of that's on you. Right? So I would say that the thing that is a solo artist I do that is different from the way that I've ever worked in groups is like Mhmm. When I get to the and it's a pain in the ass for some of my players sometimes. Fully we'll note that at the top.
Speaker 2:But, like, I'll get to the venue and, you know, check out the opening act if we don't know them or whatever and just, like, kinda get a sense of how the how the room sounds, you know, clap a bunch of times or just pop off stage while the beats run-in. Because as you know, I mean, the same beat played, right, in a 400 cap club in a cross can sound so insanely different depending on the sound system. Like, truly insane. And some rooms, particularly those that weren't built for that kind of either for live performance. You know, you're in a museum.
Speaker 2:Like, you're doing some weird library thing.
Speaker 1:You're doing
Speaker 2:a theater gig. Okay. Well, there's no subs. So, like, the sexy hard hitting moment here might as well be ballet.
Speaker 1:It ain't happening. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's not it will not be present this evening. And then there's some other, like you know, I played in a cave once when I was opening for, thievery corporation. And the cave is just as you imagine. You know, you clap once and you hear it ring for 12. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because it's a fucking cave, man. And so if you if you're playing big drug, they're just gonna go you're just gonna get garbage. So I make set list a lot of times after I get to the venue so that every night is designed around whatever the hell is going on. You know, a big election was just just swung the wrong way or, you know, if you're in Philly, however, the sports team did matters a fuck ton. To try to, like, build an evening that isn't trying to reach the highs or recreate the successes of last night, but responsive time to, hey.
Speaker 2:This show's sold out. Don't this show is not.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay. I gotta win them, and I don't want them to feel you know, sometimes you get that thing where if a room isn't as full as you want, like, the audience is so concerned about you that it's distracting. They can't have fun by themselves because they're worried if you're salty. Right. So, yeah, that to me helps each night feel different because I I hate like, I would I just like, Broadway folks, you know, how they're doing the same thing every night.
Speaker 2:Granted, they polished it up. It's, you know, a fine gem in their world, but I just doing the same thing every night. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I only
Speaker 2:got so many nights to be alive, and I want all of them to be different.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I feel like you I I feel like in the process of doing that too, you kinda create a world every night that's both for you and for the people that that are there. Right? Like, it's like a a more of a mixed, night that night, which I think is awesome. Really, really cool.
Speaker 1:I've got I've been lucky enough to see you perform a bunch of times, and I can't say that it was the exact same ever anytime I've seen you perform.
Speaker 2:So it
Speaker 1:was awesome. I can say that much, but, yeah. Wait. For your what's your favorite city? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Put it up now. Put it up right now. Do it right now from everybody. I'm kidding.
Speaker 2:I love I love New York. Yeah. I'm I'm recording from New York. I live here at halftime. And
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Dude, like, I just love it in such an uncomplicated childlike way that everybody who's been here long and he's like, wait till you but I'm just I'm not over it yet. I think New York
Speaker 1:is Right.
Speaker 2:I do love it. I do love it. Does it love me quite as hard? Probably not, but that's part of the story. Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I, you know, I I kinda started splitting my time, I don't know, 6 or 7 years ago. I I don't keep great records. But part of the appeal for me was, like, the paint writing in a page way. So, like, I think a lot of them, like, super dope designers, you know, live in Brooklyn.
Speaker 2:And I was like, where did Dorothy Parker live? You know? I want I wanted that world. So, so, yeah, like, I live in, you know, in a one bedroom in Manhattan when I'm here. Nice.
Speaker 1:Like you said In Manhattan even. Holy moly, man.
Speaker 2:Excuse me.
Speaker 1:What'd you say?
Speaker 2:I said, oh, excuse me. Just drop
Speaker 1:your pants over here. Put your hands over here. Yeah. Oh. Oh, boy.
Speaker 2:Man. Manhattan. But like you said, with waking up every day, yeah, even when it's even in its shittiest to me. Like, New York is still really charming. Like, I feel like it doesn't there's not too many days that go by before, again, I find, like, Nelia.
Speaker 2:Like, I'm just, you know, in my head. Like, I really like it. There's I have, like, a a fruit guy just like the guy in the corner who sells fruit. You know? And Yeah.
Speaker 2:And the I don't I don't totally know his name. I don't think he knows my name, but we both know that our name
Speaker 1:is You know each other.
Speaker 2:And we do this dance every time, and I go, and he does this little dance, and it's time to date. And we just, like, you know, fruit or no fruit transaction. It's a choreographed exchange.
Speaker 1:Amazing. You
Speaker 2:could live in Minneapolis for a 100 lifetimes before you have a choreographed dance with your fruit vendor.
Speaker 1:It's never gonna happen. It's never gonna you might no. No. It probably is. Well, maybe.
Speaker 1:I don't know. But it's a different. I'm not and not to shit on me okay. Not to shit on Minneapolis. I was just there for a week.
Speaker 1:I went to Duluth. I took my mama to Duluth for her birthday. It's beautiful in Duluth. People are nice in Duluth. You know?
Speaker 1:Not to shit on Minneapolis, but
Speaker 2:It's just a different city. Man. Are so It's just a
Speaker 1:different vibe. It's a completely different vibe. You know? Yeah.
Speaker 2:I feel like Minneapolis did such a did did and does. Like, I think an unusually good job at like, when you're a starting out artist, there are so many organic ways to, like, what was your first open mic? You know what I mean? There's just so many stages and so many places, like, you know, from coffee shops to the, you know, little tiny venues to oh, okay. Here's the Loft literary center to here's, Cedar Cultural Center who's gonna have, like, artists come through that might not be able to, you know, totally provide a windfall for a promoter Yep.
Speaker 2:With a fucking report.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Culturally. But they're gonna put the money into it. Yep.
Speaker 2:Exactly. I think Minneapolis is really good at that. But I think at least as near as I've discovered, like, New York isn't like, do you need a hand? Like, let me lay this nose. Use this as a step.
Speaker 2:But I think that I think that having a really big dream can come off as conceded in in Minneapolis in a way that
Speaker 1:This is true. New York.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It can it can come off as conceded or come off as, like, that's lofty. You know? Exactly. But but
Speaker 2:with one eyebrow up, like, that's lofty.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Thank you. No. Not lofty in a good way. Lofty in, like, that's not in anywhere near possible.
Speaker 1:Right?
Speaker 2:Who were you to think you could? That kind of thing a little bit.
Speaker 1:I even, like, I even, like, work you know, working in music, like, at home where, like, the thing that I did was a kind of a big deal. Right? And, like, would meet people who are just weren't, and then I'll go, oh, well, what do you do? Oh, I work in music. They'd be like, You know?
Speaker 1:Like, that's crazy to them. It's not a possible, you know, it's just not realistic. You know?
Speaker 2:So Yeah. That's I don't know. Funny. God, that's so funny now that you say it because I know exactly it's so much better said. Because I think a lot of times, you know, I'd meet somebody and what do you do or whatever?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Say it. You know? And then, oh, like, for weddings or Yep. Yep.
Speaker 2:You're Essentially, what you're saying is that's an unattainable dream that you already have attained.
Speaker 1:Yep. Yep. To them, they're like, you haven't attained shit probably.
Speaker 2:What are
Speaker 1:you doing here? Like, yeah. No. A 1000%. I mean, that used to happen all the time.
Speaker 1:And, like, I I'm like, oh, okay. And now even now I mean, even now well, for other reasons now when I'm, like, traveling, people will be like, oh, what do you do? And I'm like, well, I'm I'm the founder of a start up, and they're like, yeah. Okay. But that's for other reasons
Speaker 2:Like obviously. Like, good good luck. Like, nobody makes it.
Speaker 1:So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 1:Anyways, so sorry we got completely sidetracked. I wanna let you get out of here. I wanna respect your time. I really, really appreciate you coming on and chatting. I would like for you to talk about really quickly what you have coming up.
Speaker 1:I know you have a podcast right now.
Speaker 2:I used to have a podcast.
Speaker 1:Oh, no. What happened?
Speaker 2:I had a podcast with with the BBC and APM that was called, Deeply Human. And it's really good. So whatever. People are looking for a, you know, a little retro listening. I I think they hold up pretty well.
Speaker 2:It was on science y stuff. Awesome. Right now, I am gearing up for the publication of, like, a collaborative book that I did with, bartender slash like, I don't know even right. He said that mixologist can sorta come off like meh. But I can.
Speaker 2:Person essentially who designs, like, beverage menus and Uh-huh. You know, builds cocktails. So he's worked for, like, you know, dozens of restaurants to, like, figure out what their best plan is. Anyway, his name is Marco Zappia, and he's I just thought I just think he's great. I, like, ran across some of his work a few years ago and made that note.
Speaker 2:Like, I have no idea why we would collaborate on anything at any time. But I just think you're absolutely your job, and if I can make up an excuse to work with you, and then I found them. So, my yeah. So we've got a cocktail book coming out, in November called Bury the Lead, a cocktail book.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Bury the Lead, a cocktail book, I assume will be available everywhere where you can buy books.
Speaker 2:Absolutely not. It'll be available from a bunch of places and on the Internet.
Speaker 1:Awesome. So cool. Definitely go get that. I will, you know, the fact that I completely missed that you had a podcast has kinda pissed me off. So I will be going back and listening to every episode.
Speaker 1:I'm also that that's just I have problems with this. I listen to a lot of podcasts and surprisingly a lot of science based stuff. Really? I'm very much into. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. 1000%. Very much into. I don't know if you, you might find her interesting. You should check her out.
Speaker 1:Her name is Coppola in a pot. She's on TikTok, and she also just recently wrote a book. And so text me her name? Absolutely. Absolutely will.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I'm I'm very much into the cosmos, so, like, I'm all about it. So I will definitely check it out. Listen. Thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate you taking the time, to chop it up.
Speaker 1:We have to set up time to talk more, so I will be I will take the, the reins to be able to do that. But, yeah, I really appreciate you coming on, and, let's look out for that book.
Speaker 2:This was so fun. This is the most fun I've had guessing on a podcast in a long time, and now I get to leave and you have to edit, which is the best of all possible.
Speaker 1:Thanks for tuning in to the loadout. This episode was produced by me with music by the incredible Mike and additional editing and mixing also by Mike. If you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to subscribe and rate the podcast. Follow me at probably Ashanti on all platforms. Until next time, keep buying those tickets.
Speaker 1:Peace.