Episode 3 - Domino

Ashanti Abdullah (00:09.41)
the loadout. I'm your host, Ashanti Abdullah. And each week we take you behind the scenes of the live music industry. From touring tips and industry insights to candid conversations with artists, managers and music professionals, we uncover the stories and strategies that make live performances unforgettable. Whether you're an artist, a tour manager, or just a live music enthusiast, this podcast is your backstage pass to the world of touring and live events.

Today, we have a very special guest, Domino.

As a renowned record producer, manager, DJ, and key member of the legendary Oakland -based hip -hop collective Hieroglyphics, Domino has been instrumental in shaping the sound and success of the group. With his deep knowledge of jazz and funk, creative sampling techniques, and extensive production skills, Domino has left an indelible mark on the underground hip -hop scene. Join us as we delve into the behind -the -scenes stories and business strategies that have defined his career. Let's get started.

What's up, bro? I'm so happy to have you on here, my man. it's my pleasure, man. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it, bro. I really appreciate you coming through. How's the day treating you? It's just getting started, man. I was listening to the track I made last night. You know, it's kind of like the producer thing, right? Yeah, it never stops. And then that next morning listen kind of, you know, either, you know, confirms what you thought or maybe, you know, takes you down a road where you're like,

How many of those have you thrown away? I don't throw away anything now, not anymore because you it's like, never know. You know, one of the things I realized about producing is that what you like isn't necessarily what the MC likes. And so there's so many tracks and even stuff that's outward, like I played a bunch of beats and the stuff that they picked, I was like, you want that? so

Ashanti Abdullah (02:09.07)
You know, I tend to not try to just totally just be totally judging it 100 % myself. Right. like playing here and there, but you definitely have your favorites. And but they're not necessarily other people's favorites. Yeah, no, I mean, I'm aware of that. It's funny from the management side. know, people send me all, you know, when they get stuff like half done or whatever, they send it through to me and.

there's some stuff that they might not even like, but from our side, we hear what it can be. You know what I mean? So then it becomes a whole like tussle with them of finish the song, it'll be great. You know what mean? Back and forth a bunch of arguments. Yeah, you know, sometimes, you know, you got to see something of somebody that they can't see in themselves. That's kind of the key to management, right? Yeah, I mean, that is or a lot or so there's that. That's one part of it. But there's also the side of

that person is just really talented with no structure. You know what I mean? And so sometimes that's the helpful part of it too. Yeah. You know, the main thing I'm dealing with right now, you know, as probably with anyone who manages MCs is trying to get the hooks right. It's like these guys are so like, they want to, you know, rip and do, you know, show their skills. And I'm

I'm an underground head, man, but I'm gonna need some choruses from the end. Yeah, straight up. I wanna be able to ride with my girl and have her enjoy it. Right, right. 1000%, bro. I mean, think that's also like, it's funny because when you listen to, when you listen back to music that came out in the 90s, that was more on the like, dilated

y 'all or whoever that type of level. Like now you listen to it as super nostalgic. But yeah, mean, nowadays music's changed so much. Hip hop, is like considered still underground hip hop does have choruses. It does have song structure now. You know what I mean? So yeah, I'm with you on the same thing. But also I think over the years, I think from sitting in office and listening to so much rap all the time.

Ashanti Abdullah (04:19.83)
I don't always listen to rap anymore, man. And I love that music, like, you know, people like, Ketronada. I love that people like Ketronada or people like that are in the fold, your thundercats, blah, blah, blah. Cause I still all consider them part of that hip hop world. And that music speaks to me just as much as hip hop these days. I think it's probably just getting old. Yeah. I think, I think that most people like

It's really about the content, right? You know, I think that as you get older, you're not as engaged in lyrics, you know what I mean? Maybe, and maybe, you know, just melody becomes a little bit more important when you're just kind of chilling and you you listen to probably more music, just playing in the background. You know, my thing is variety, right? Like I have like, you know, basically play, you know, I have the normal playlist, but I have like one that's my whole cat, like everything that I like. And I generally listen to it on random.

Like, so it'll go from fucking Coltrane to fucking Scarface to fucking Portishead to, you know, Marley, you know what I mean? And it's just like, that's how I like to listen to music because you never really know what you want to hear until it's on.

I mean, for real. I mean, at this point, I mean, you remember back in the day, you used to have CDs, bro. You had an idea of exactly what you're going to play in a car and what you're going to all of this. I can't do none of that no more, dude. It's always on random, bro. And it's the same way. It's just whatever's in my mind. Mine's pretty eclectic, too. It can go in, all over the place, to be honest with you from Bonobo to I mean, you name it, bro. I got some weird shit in there. Yeah, me too. You know.

So we're music heads, so it's gonna be, I feel like half my day is looking for new music. Not just new, like current, but also just something I haven't heard before. Right, right. Quick, so my bad, let's get started, my bad, total side tangent. I wanted to talk about the early days and the beginnings and how you started, how you got there. How was early life, are you on the San Francisco side or the?

Ashanti Abdullah (06:25.23)
San Francisco, I was born and raised in San Francisco and lived in San Francisco till my, know, till my mid 20s, maybe early 20s. so what side of town I lived? Well, I lived in the in the mission is where I kind of grew up. And then when I was like middle of high school, I,

moved out to Monterey Boulevard out that way for maybe three years, three or four years after, I think it was like 10th grade or something when I moved there or ninth So did you go to Jefferson then? No, I went to Mission High. my man. It must have been different back then. I got a son who just went to school out here and he definitely wasn't going to Mission High. But I assume it was probably different back then.

I don't know, you know, like Mission kind of always had a reputation. And the thing is, is that the like the the like people that I knew who went to Mission High were like older were like, yeah. And it's like in the 70s, it was old school. Yeah, it was like games. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so it's like, you know, I think that every era has its own. You know, these are urban schools, man. You know, so they're always going to have their little things going

True. A lot lower income, a lot less, not a lot, but some less, you know, parental support and PTA is involved. Like I remember, like I never heard of the PTA until, like, I don't remember no PTA in Michigan. It wasn't until I was a parent that I was like, hey, what's that step? My son actually ended up going to Gal.

which was a great experience because it was a completely different school than it was back in the day. It was a great school. Great. mean, you can't beat it, bro. It's like right there kind of on the water. It's like the quintessential. He moved from Hebrew from our hometown, which is Minneapolis. So imagine moving out to the West Coast and going to like the quintessential like high school look. You know what mean? It was it was pretty dope. Yeah. Yeah. You walk down three blocks or two blocks and you're right there at the water. Exactly. So from your from your

Ashanti Abdullah (08:46.254)
from your early days in San Francisco, moving to the East Bay, all of that stuff. You lived in the back of the groove merchant. Yeah. How did that influence your ear? How did that really influence how you ended up getting into music? Well, it didn't influence me getting into music. Part of the reason why I was there was because I was selling the music. It started where I was digging. This is probably like 89. And I used to go up to the upper

where there was a recycle records and there was a, this is before Amoeba, this was like cycle records and I want to say rough trade. And there was a few other places that I used to dig. And then I became friends with a guy at recycle records and he saw what I was getting. And he was like, Hey, have you checked out that place down the street? Groove Merchant Records had opened. They kind of cater to what you like. And so I went down there and obviously they were one of the earliest,

of stores that catered to soul funk jazz pretty much exclusively, you know? And so Rare Groove and stuff. And so I just became friends with the owner and his wife, Mike Maffatin. And this was the early days. Groove Merchant still is around, but it's down the street. It's like a block down and it's owned by Cool Chris. It's not. So anyway, long story short,

there was somebody renting out his store room, which was like a studio apartment. He mentioned it to me and I'm thinking like, yeah, I'll live in there. You cause I was living with my mom, you know what mean? I was like 19. Yeah, it was time to go. Yeah. so he rented me the, it's basically was literally a store room, like a studio apartment at the back of the, of the, of the store because it was like double doors. And so if the one

I would unlock mine and I could walk right into the store. That's crazy. And so, yeah, man. so, you know, I mean, what I learned from there, well, couple of things happened. My life pretty much changed being there because obviously I was, it was a plethora of music that I was finding out about just because of the, you know, it isn't like now you can go online and find shit. Like you had to kind of know. And Mike knew, you know, and he

Ashanti Abdullah (11:10.53)
That was all that was there. And then there was all kinds of like, you know, people, notable people that used to come through. Like I know P Rock was there and it was a bunch of people that used to come through. And what my life changed is Dante Ross used to come through a lot. And somehow, you know, his dad, used to come to for Gavin Convention, which was, you know, music convention that was based in San Francisco.

And his dad also lived in San Francisco. So he would come to the store a lot. And somehow Mike told him about me because I was in the back making beats and I was rapping at the time. And he told Dante about me and somehow we met each other and we got to talking and has a similar taste in records. And then, you know, he would come back and we would, you know, hang out more. And then I don't remember how much time had elapsed,

maybe a few months or whatever, six months. And he was like, hey man, I like what you're doing, man. goes, I just signed this dude from Oakland, Ice Cube's cousin, Dell the funky homo sapien. He has a whole crew of dudes. You should hook up with them. He told them about me and then me and Dell and A plus took Bart to my house. By this time, like, again, I'm in Monterey. They came to the city and met with me, right? And then I was playing the beats and they were rhyming and I was

you we had this kinship. It was like instant. Like I knew that I wanted to work with these dudes and I think they felt the same. So that's kind of what started it. And to where, and then I ended up going to Oakland and meeting the rest of the crew and you know, the rest is history as they say. That's what's up, man. As you were the oldest of the group, right? Did that kind of make you the spokesman and the manager of the group or how did that kind of come about? I think that has something to do with it.

I was, I want to say they were like 17 and 18. And I was, I was about, I was like 21 or 20. And so I think that probably has something to do with it. think also like that kind of was just my, my personality. Yeah. And so like, kind

Ashanti Abdullah (13:35.586)
You know, I had been with other crews and I generally was the one who was like the leader who kind of was like, all right, we're going to do this and do that. And then, you know, it was kind of the main person. And so I kind of just took that role with them. and also I was doing beats with them. So the way that it transpired is I was, I was part of the demos with for souls and casual. And so when it was time to kind of get these out

I kind of was the one decided I was sending them out. was making the tapes. I had my number on it. just naturally, because I had something invested in it, I just naturally was taking the role of kind of facilitating this. All right, we'll send it here. then people started calling. And then I remember Caswell got a call and they wanted to fly him down to LA. And he was like, yo, I'm going to bring my man. And I came and we were in interviews.

And I basically, you know, was asking the questions that made sense to me, you know, like to these labels and, and then I remember selling somebody like, man, we need to find you a manager. I said it to, I want to say, I saw, I said this to Paul Stewart because he, was one of the, me and, me and casual were sleeping on Paul Stewart's floor. one of the times when we got brought down and,

I remember he was, I've heard like the initial Far Side demo was that era, like, know, and so I just remember Faking the Funk was a big song at the time. That's kind of like my memory. That's how I think of time. So I guess this is 1990 or 91. And so long story short, I was saying, well, we need to get Casual Manager and Paul kind of said, well, kind of what you're doing right now is managing. That's what it is. It's kind of like he put that in my ear.

And so then when I went back up to the Bay, Souls, Opio from Souls of Mischief's stepfather is a legal music attorney. he had represented, you know, Donny Hathaway and different people throughout the years and Ice Cube. And so I kind of cornered him in his kitchen one day and kind of was trying to feel it out to see whether or not I could do this or this was just some, you

Ashanti Abdullah (16:01.294)
just, you I'm a 20 year old, you know, confidence, you know what I'm saying? And so he kind of was like, you know, he goes, well, you know, why don't we do it together? I'll be like the Y, you know, the veteran who, you know, will kind of advise and watch all the legal stuff and you'll be kind of more on the ground. And while you're going out, he goes, I don't want to like travel out with them, you you'll do all that. And then,

you know, when it's time and you'll learn during this, you know, and that's kind of how it happened to where I was kind of going to New York for these meetings with Jive and Electra. And then when it came time to do deals, I was on the calls. And so I was learning kind of as it was going in, you know, I think a lot of people, think common sense is also a little underrated, you know, and not everybody has it,

I think that if you have some common sense and you kind of, may not know, you may not have the knowledge, but you can deduct what decisions make sense. You know what I mean? Like, and just if you analyze it that way, and that's kind of what got me through the early days was just kind of not being, you know, just starting was basically I had a kind of a sense of what I could assess what made the most sense whenever decision came around.

And so that's kind of how I got my start in the management. So I was doing this and at the same time I'm still producing and making beats. And then it just kind of went from there. It's funny it worked out. like I, this is a theme that's been running through all of these episodes that we've been doing. But one of the themes is how do you end up becoming a manager? And I can tell you from what I, from all the managers that I know are other people that work on this side of the business, including myself,

You start off by wanting to be an artist and you realize that you're the better suited person for it. It's a personality thing. It's not like, it's not something you can't just like learn how to have the personality to be a manager. You can learn all the other stuff, right? But you have to, you really have to have that personality. And a lot of it does come down to like being meticulous and being a forward thinker, right? So if you think about where will this put me in five years or where this put me in three years or where will this put us?

Ashanti Abdullah (18:27.726)
And the other piece that I think people kind of forget, because a lot of artists, they tend to manage themselves in the beginning, which is fine. And that's exactly how it should be. if you're really going to be a good artist, I think you should really understand the business and be the one making those decisions. You just have a manager to speak on your behalf. However, a lot of times artists can tend to not have the ability to, because it is their art, at the end of the day, they have the ability to not be able to take

the emotional part of it away from it and make business deals based on just the deal at the end of the day. And so I think that's where the management side kind of comes into help is you and you it's funny because you're you are still attached to it, but not on the level of the lyricism side or whatever you're you're attached to it in a different way. Well, I'm not a figurehead right? It's different when you're like the artist in front like it's one thing if you're a producer in the back, you're already kind of playing that role.

I think you hit it on the head. think that, I think we said it, I said it to you when we first got on a call was basically, you know, knowing what's best for somebody. Know that they may not recognize. And that's the key to management, right? And you know, artists are gonna love their art, but, and this is why it's so important. think one of the things that I've learned is you really, it's really about having a certain.

amount of trust between you and your artists because they have to realize that they have to trust you and they have to know that you have their best interests at hand. And so then you can say some things that are critical that they could say, if they trust you, then they'll know that you're doing this for the right reasons, for the best interests of them. And

It's easy to manage somebody who, who you're agree, if you agree with them all the time, you know, that's easy. That's what they want. But the real job of a manager comes into play when you're dealing with, you know, disagreements about the direction of stuff. And, you know, and so the good managers and you know, Hey, I've been doing it a while now. You know what I mean? Like you learn these things that, know,

Ashanti Abdullah (20:47.438)
A lot of management is babysitting. A lot of management is also like massaging egos and knowing how and when to address certain issues. I mean, I manage Dell and he's a true artist where like, he doesn't think along those lines. I've never, like he's the type of dude that if he wants to do a show, he either wants to do it or not. He never asks how much it is.

you know, how much am I making? That's never his question. Right. You know, and that's very rare, right? Because you get the money, can go, if someone's care is just about the money, they're like, well, how much am I getting? Right. Dell's like, I either want to do it or I don't, you know, and so he's that true artist sense of, but then he has all these other things that are not really don't navigate business world. Well, that's where I come in. I've had, I mean, my, I've had

amazing relationships with artists I've worked with over the years. One in particular is Manifest. For whatever reason, we became like brothers almost straight out the gate. Like it's wild how it all started. I needed a roommate. was back when I was in Minneapolis. I needed a roommate. He was looking on Craigslist. He saw my name was Ashanti, which is a big deal in Africa. He was like, let me go check this guy's place out.

we end up being roommates. And then one day he's standing outside rapping. I'm like, what's that? What you rapping, bro? He's like, that's me. I'm like, huh. And I was working with Prof and Roswell at the time. I take, well, it's just Prof now, but it was Prof and Roswell at the time. So I take him over there to record. He lays something down as fire. Then it becomes, you know, Prof's got a lot going on. can't, so I went and bought a DG01. And then we just started recording. That's literally what started his entire

crazy ass long career, right? Was this time spent together. But we were so close and like brothers, we almost argued so much that we, you know, but I think at the end of that, some of the most amazing shit kind of came out of it because we were pushed. It was like, if there wasn't a good reason from both of us, it wasn't happening. You know what I mean? And I think that's that rubbing against each other really built something amazing for him.

Ashanti Abdullah (23:10.924)
It was a fun, it was a fun journey. We still argue to this day. There's people in the middle of our conversations all the time and they don't realize that we're, I mean, we just fuck with each other, bro. It's just a part of our, you know what mean? I think that's the most important thing, right? I think of relatability is another thing that's important. You know, you get a lot of these big managers and they have certain connections and that's why maybe like an artist who starts with somebody that they know and then they go over

a bigger, you lose a little bit of that relatability. You know, got these people, they know who to call and they have a big Rolodex, but their interaction with the artists isn't the same. It's weird. So that's a big part. And so when you come up with somebody, you able to get that. I think that's one of the best traits that I have for Hi -Row is we came up together, but also I was part of it. And so I kind of understand the aesthetic and I understand

what's, you know, it's not like I'm like just some guy who would have Rolodex. I understand music and I'm on both sides too, cause I'm a producer. And so it kind of, it helped our relationship because I'm not just saying, Hey, we get this distributor and we'll do this marketing. It's like, also I'm part of the whole, I'm not just saying do a record and then turn it in. I'm there and I'm giving critique and I'm fully engaged in it. Yeah.

I've been able to, yeah, I totally agree. I have zero musical talent. I can play the guitar, but that's about it. I've tried it all over the years. I've DJed forever. Like that was my jam. I was touring as a DJ the whole night. And then I realized all my friends were getting better and I wasn't. And I was like, well, I guess I'm just a manager. So I don't have the ability to be involved on that level.

But it's odd, because I'm still involved in the light. It depends. It depends on who I've worked with. Certain artists need that from the beginning. Like, yo, here's the record. What am I missing? Who else needs to be involved? And I connect them with this producer or that producer or get them in a studio or whatever the case is, right? But I do have the ear. So if something doesn't sound right, it's easy to have that discussion. I can't tell you what to do to it, but I could tell you this. You know what I mean? I can't physically go press the buttons.

Ashanti Abdullah (25:31.992)
but I can tell you something, this is, that's wrong or think about it like this or whatever the case is. Well, see, that's the key, right? A lot of people in hip hop kind of took this and ran with it that says producer means that you make the shit. Right. Like the ear, having that ear is as important of a trait as anything. Yeah. And so being able to tell somebody why something isn't good or what they could do to make it better.

is just as important, if not more than actually physically doing those things. Right. I mean, the biggest example is Rick Rubin. Like he's, you know, everyone knows he, I can't play a damn thing, but he can tell you what to do. And he can tell you the part that's the hit. And he can tell, he can make, get the best out of a performance. And that's really the true definition of a producer. Not just cause you're the dude banging it out because there's a lot of dudes who bang out something. They send

And then they have no part in where it goes and how the dude kicks it and how the chorus goes. And they just hear it when it's finished. In my opinion, you didn't produce that. You wrote the music. Yeah, you wrote the music. But you didn't produce it. You're the guy in there who's saying, all right, we're going to break it down here. And this part is the change. We're have a bridge here. That's the producer. Yeah, I totally agree. that gets lost in hip hop that people think.

I'm a producer because you've made a beat, not necessarily. Nah, I mean, how do you see, look, what's the whole picture here? What's the whole picture and how does it even fit into that bigger picture of this album or whatever the case is, right? Exactly. That's a valuable trait. And so you being able to do that, like I wouldn't sell, you know, can't sell yourself short because you can't physically do it, doesn't mean anything. Yeah, I guess you're right. can get the best out of the music, then you're doing your job. This is true. This is true.

Shout out to myself, big up myself. So your production style is known for its blend of jazz and funk, as well as some pretty creative sampling. What's your process of creating a beat and selecting samples?

Ashanti Abdullah (27:44.834)
I just listen to music, you know, it's just whatever catches my ear and it could be anything. You know, generally I'll start with the sample. That'd be like the main, I mean, it's changed through the years, but the general sense is that I start with the sample. Like every once in a while, I might just program some drums and go from there, but that isn't my normal. That's me saying, you know what, I want to do start something that way. Right, right, right. But, or, you know, I guess back in the day it was a drum loop, but you know,

for the most part, I'll start with a sample and then kind of build around that. And then, you know, get it to where, where the beat is as far as just with the sample and whatever I can control. And then I'm not, I'm not really a musician per se. So like I have people that I collaborate with the, where I can do change ups or maybe lose the sample, do different things depending on what I like. And so.

But my process is generally start with a sample and then go from there. And, you know, sometimes by the time I'm done with my part, the sample is unrecognizable. so, you know, that's now, like, you know, back in the day, I listened to my older, you know, the early nineties and I'm like, you know, you just loop and shit. And really it was just about having good records. know, I think now it's a little different to where it's not so much based on just loop. It's basically having a good, you still have

good ear for what sounds good and what would be dope. But now you're trying to, you know, be a little bit more creative. And that somewhat also is just being like, I still, you know, as you know, right now, like there's a lot of people are getting their style is looping and not even adding drums, you know, and that's just a, and, that's great. You know what I'm saying? But part of me, I don't feel satisfied with that.

You right. And so I have some shit like that. Don't get me wrong. But I feel like I have the pool to like not just take a good record and loop it like I want to do other things. You know, that's just, you know, and that's kind of I'm kind of caught between that. You know what mean? Like because I also like part of producing is not just adding things, but knowing what not to add. Exactly. And so you can overproduce stuff.

Ashanti Abdullah (30:09.186)
by saying, ego tells me I need to add more shit to make this more my own. But then you don't have a, the key is to have the best result no matter what the method is. And that's what I tell people who ask me like, what type of equipment should I get? said, whatever best gets you to express what you're trying to do musically, use that. It doesn't really matter whether

something old, some analog shit, if it's something like simple, you know, fruity loops or all that type of stuff, like, it doesn't matter. Just get out whatever, whatever makes you be able to express yourself artistically easiest, go with that. I think that that's like a life lesson in general. Like that's what anything, bro. Like, I think people get bogged down by what's the best of this and the best of that. Well, if you ain't making

then it doesn't really matter, you know? Even on the management side, when you first start, you start with like, whatever you got. You know what mean? Whatever you got. And that's, mean, when it comes to hip hop, that's just hip hop. You start with whatever you got, and then you start to add from there. Well, you know, like, I think less is more in a lot of ways. A thousand percent. And it's like, you know, the harder it is to, well, the less things you have at your disposal means you start using

your creative sense. It's like, well, I don't have any plug and delay, you know, reverb or echo. So now I'm going to just do five of that thing on pads, all, all with different volumes. So it sounds like it's echoing, but you know, those are the things that happen when you don't have access to everything. And so, you know, there's all kinds of shit and now everything does it for you. Damn near everything's put on pitch and, and,

It'll splice everything for you right when you enter it. And that's all great. You can change the pitch, you know, this the tempo and the pitch doesn't change. Like all that shit is fucking great. You know what I'm But still, you got a theory behind it. Understand why. Like I quit. I quit. Basically quit DJing on a regular basis and like for a group and all that prior to like right before Serato came out. Right. And so now I hop on and do stuff. You know, if I go to do something or

Ashanti Abdullah (32:31.092)
or scratch for some, know, do whatever for somebody like, yo, how do you like, you don't even really be using Serato. And I'm like, it's the same concept, bro. If you understand the basic concept of how you're supposed to do this, this just makes what you did before easier. It's not like, you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, I think that's one of the things that people even that even the purists who are like anti, you know, final, you know what I mean? And I'm like, all this is is still

takes the same things. It's just now your crate is coming out of your computer. This thing won't play the right records. It won't bring them in at the right time. And so I'm always feel like people that get too purist about methods that were before is just, you're just short -sighted. Like, fucking shit evolves. you just have to embrace it. you don't embrace

then you're just looking like the bitter old guy who's mad that no one wants to hear his shit no more. And so, you you'll never hear me talk shit about new hip hop because it's like, if I don't like it, I don't like it. And I just say, that's not for me. And that's okay. You know what mean? I'm gonna go look for the shit I do like. And I'm not gonna just lament that cats don't rap like Rakim anymore. mean, you know, like you

these people, artists, you can only be influenced by what you know. And so a lot of these artists don't have the history and they're going to do be influenced by other peers. And you just have to accept that as, know, you know, I'm in my 50s. You know what I mean? Like, you know, you got to just don't be the bitter dude. know, get off my lawn. Like, don't be that guy. I see it for what it is. I see it for what it is. And I love some of the new stuff, man. I listen. I mean, you know, cats like Rambo or

I'm trying to think of some other cats that just are so, they're still original. Even with all of that, and even with everything that's been put out, that's just who they are. They figured out a way to just be an original cat. I love that kind of shit. I might not listen to every song because I might not like every song, but I like the idea of what's happening. I like the artistry behind it. You know what Well, the thing about hip hop, as opposed to like in the late 80s and early 90s, when the, is that the tent has grown significantly.

Ashanti Abdullah (34:54.432)
And also because of social media and Spotify, you have access to everything. You know what I'm saying? And so really, if somebody who's an old head or whatever, who likes that aesthetic, really wants that, you can find it if you put it into work. Absolutely. Because there's, for every, know, Tekashi 6ix9ine or fucking Lil Uzi Vert, there's somebody underground who's more within the aesthetic that you're championing. Yeah.

in that late 80s, early 90s, you know, has that point of view, you just have to go find it. You just, it ain't on the, on the, the, on Yeah, it's not on radio. Yeah, it's not on the radio. It's not on the - And the thing is, is that what people don't, you know, here's the thing that's funny. What cats don't realize is in the late 80s and early 90s, you know, how everything now you'll hear like rock, you know, you'll hear like fucking during the day, you'll hear all these classic songs.

They weren't playing that shit on the radio. Hell no, And so like once the mid 90s came now, all of a sudden, you you got these mixed shows and maybe early 90s and then they're playing like, you know, they're playing the old school Friday for like mix and they're playing during the day all these songs. And I used to think when I, when they first were doing that, I used to

these motherfuckers didn't play that shit in the eighties. You are not hearing fucking, you you got soul on KML. You weren't. At midnight you might've been. And so like, you know, I think that's the interesting part about it is that people act like, well, you know, they don't play the good show on radio. They didn't, they've never done it. Yeah, they never did. That's not how it works. That's not how it worked at all. There was payola, there was reasons why people played stuff. And then you had your few people.

Believe like, that's funny. We were talking about a love before we started. But Adrian, you have people like that that were working at radio stations that were against all getting fired records. They weren't supposed to be playing. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's funny. was just I was talking to someone recently and I was like, I came up in the nineties, late eighties, late eighties, early nineties is when my brain started to understand the world.

Ashanti Abdullah (37:07.266)
And I look at some of the kids that were doing this, you know, there was this whole big 90s push of kids dressing like the 90s and doing all this. And I remember looking back at some of them being like, yeah, we didn't dress like that. Also, that shit wasn't cool. And now it's like, where are y 'all getting this from? Like, is this from a book or like, what the fuck? Yeah, well, you know, that's, that's the new generation, right? Social media. I said this before. It's a bunch of people who, like, I think I I had posted, it was about this whole thing about who was and wasn't Brown.

in the early days of hip hop. I was like, only social media is somebody arguing who wasn't there against somebody who was there and telling them that they're not right. You know what I'm saying? And I'm like, you know, and that's the thing is that a lot of people, you know, as the thing with history is that is a lot of times people have revisionist history for years. know what mean? True, true indeed. That's funny because

break that back to the whole thing of the Kendrick Drake thing. Like the internet people were on Drake's side to begin with. You see how that worked out in the end, but like that's the reason why, because they don't really, if you don't have a history of understand where all this comes from and the musical elements and all of those things, you will fall for that. Okey -doke. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, you, you know, once again, you can't hate on Drake's numbers or whatever, but it is what it is.

I don't hate on nobody, There's enough money out there for of us. everybody, yeah. Drake is not taking away anything from me. Not from nobody. Anything. And I used to say this back when Puff first broke, right? When all of a sudden hip hop started to become pop, it was the main shit on the radio. It started a little before that, but that's when it was like pretty much all hit, when all the format was just turned into hip

Yeah. And I used to be like, Hey, I ain't got nothing against that. think if anything, makes the tent. There's a lot of people that are finding out about hip hop through this commercial shit. And maybe they are looking a little deeper and in finding other people there, at least now this is their intro to the music. It's different now because hip hop's so big. there's not really, everyone knows what it is now, but I think that a lot of times

Ashanti Abdullah (39:26.306)
the bigger the tent gets, there's gonna be some trickle down even, you so the bigger, more, you know, more, you know, doors that Drake opens, the more that just happened for the culture. And so I'm not, I don't begrudge anybody. I think people act like someone else's success somehow takes away from them. And I think that shit is bullshit. we can get deeper with, we go all the way deep with that. That's for a whole nother show, but there's a reason why that thought is out there. Yeah.

Let's talk a little bit about just overall business leadership, things of that nature. So you were acting CEO of Hyrule from 97 to 2006. How'd you navigate the business aspects of the label while maintaining its artistic integrity? When we got dropped off labels, it was kind of a reassessment of what we wanted to do. And I think that the main thing that was in my mind was, OK, we had all this buzz and clout and all this

Everyone shouting how great we were, but what do we got to show for it? You know, not a lot. And so what we decided to do, what my vision was, was let's start off as an indie and put out, what we'll do is we'll put out a high -roll record, right? And the aim is, so everyone knows we're a high -roll crew, but we've never done anything together, you know? So let's do that and that'll be our thing. And then everyone

what will show that we have a little bit of clout on how, what to do as far as on the marketing sense and putting out records and maybe in all the individual records artists, mean, all the individual artists, Soles, Dell, Casual will eventually get signed again. That was the initial plan, right? But because we're showing that we had some independent set success, this will demand more creative control and we prove that we can do

You know, that was kind of the grand plan, you know? And then what ended up happening is once we put out Third Eye Vision, which is our first indie release, we started making a lot of money and we were touring Helluva and we realized that this was the way. had ownership. We owned something.

Ashanti Abdullah (41:51.114)
And it was like, and we also weren't necessarily making the music that we felt was conducive with being on the label. Right. You know what mean? And so it was the internet had just started or was at the beginning, at least as far as being a, you know, a mass kind of thing. wasn't mass yet, but, so like we didn't, we felt like we had found the niche. had our website super early. did the whole indie hip hop touring circuit.

was started by us. You know what saying? Like there was at that time, this was probably midnight, unless you were like a big, big artist or you were on the fucking, you know, a sign or you were on like the Budweiser Super Fest. There wasn't really a whole lot of touring opportunities for indie artists who didn't have the big book in Asia and whatever. And so, you know, I basically, we had a 12 inch, the initial 12 inch we put out was the Who.

with After Dark on the B side, which was the first single for Third Eye Vision. I had lists, DJ lists from friends who were still in the industry. So I took these lists and I was sending these 12 inch out and I was calling, doing the calls. I was basically being a radio promoter. And once I got on the call and they'd be like, well, when do you want to, you know,

When you want us to play this, cause I know you want to get on the chart. used to be like, I don't care. I'm not planning out charts. Just play it. And by the way, who throws shows in your area? Because I knew that the college radio DJs were the most of these people that I was who were on these lists. I knew that they knew that. so then they go, well, call this guy, call this guy. Yeah, man. You know, and so that's kind of how.

And so the first tour, and this was probably like in 97, the first tour was like literally, I booked it basically through, and there was a couple of people that we had done shows with before that I knew, but for the most part, I booked it and it wasn't like a great job. We did like three shows a week and we were kind of like just, but it allowed us, what we did was we would

Ashanti Abdullah (44:10.05)
have hella off days, which isn't ideal on a tour, but we've been staying. Me being that manager and tour manager, I'm giving you one off day, two off days a week, baby. That's about it. But you had to get in where you fit in. Well, thing was, is I didn't have the Rolodex, right? So I couldn't fill in a week. I can only do two or three shows that would get us to the next place. But what we did during that time was we would go to these college stations. We'd be like, hey,

We're in your town, we're gonna come up to the show. We would go to record stores, we'd go to the mall and promote our shit. We basically, that's kind of what we did on the initial tour. So in hindsight, yeah, we didn't make no money, but in hindsight, it did a lot to kind of like plant the seed that we were coming out with something. Yeah, mean, back to the point about how many shows a week, my motto, and I say it to the guys all the time, every day you

Not making money on the road losing money Because you got it you still got per diems you still got gas you still got hotels and so half of half of me building turn will Was to To explain the artists Literally have them just be able to look on their phone This is how much money you're losing when you're messing around, know what I'm saying? That was it was out of annoyance for trying to help them understand

Yeah, it's like we go to budget this out. You're coming home with money and this is how you're going to do it. So everything you thought you were going to do on this tour, that's not happening. You know what I mean? But that's been the motto. And shout out to Peter Schwartz, who was like the first agent who kind of was grinding with us. So the story, though, is that when we were when we were on this tour that I had booked two, three shows a week, we got to New York. And I remember this like it was yesterday. We went to Fat Beats.

And you know, I don't know if you remember, you went to Fat Beats. Oh yeah. In the late 90s, there used to be a payphone right at the bottom of Fat Beats, the stairs as you come down. And I get a page from this 212 member. I call it back and it's Peter Schwartz. And I knew him before because he was Kara Lewis' assistant when Dell was with Kara, right? And so I knew him.

Ashanti Abdullah (46:28.3)
He's, you he says, Hey, I see you out doing things. And I'm like, you're just the guy I want to talk to. You know what I'm saying? Because I knew that I, needed to fill in this shit. And I'm like, and he says, yeah, come up to the office. And then this is when he was at the agency group when he first got there. And, Peter had a hand of, basically filling in those gaps and we were doing like, and back to the point we were doing like

40 shows in 42 days. You know what mean? Like, mean, that's crazy too. Don't get me wrong. Yeah, no, is. Hey, you know, the crazy thing though, is that I never thought we were doing that until last year. I go out on this 93 dates tour with souls and I'm like, yo, like three months of, of grind, you know, like, and I'm like, yo, I don't even think I did three months, a three month tour when I was in my twenties. Right.

That's rough, bro. Yeah. And hey, man, I, you know, God bless the souls, man. Every night they fucking showed out like they didn't have any throw in nights. They gave the full performance on show and ended up being over 93. So, you know, show 102, they were still given people their money's worth. Yeah. There's, there's a couple of different ways it can be approached. And I've seen different artists approach it different ways. ASAP rock for one

he would tour two or three weeks on and one week off. Like that's how he just did it. He would go home for a week and then go back for three weeks and then home for a week, which was cool. You I think most people that done enough, you you look at the bottom line, man, you know, you want to go home with a good amount of money. You don't want to have too many days off. There's some people that can afford that. Yeah. You know, so like, you know, we were just on the road with Cyprus and they only wanted to do, I think three or four shows a

And so that's cool. They can do that. But the rep, I was like to the agent, I was like, yo, like, we got to fill in. Yeah, we got to do these other days. Yeah. yeah. I saw you. saw you. That's right. That was like, what was that? The Toyota or Honda Center? Yeah, that was like, yeah, that was that was like, that wasn't part of the tour. I mean, it was like a separate, but that was obviously a separate. Yeah, that was yeah, that was the the night that that was the day Kendrick

Ashanti Abdullah (48:52.078)
Cause we were at soundcheck and like, it's right, dropped one. And that was the night he dropped the day day they dropped out. They're not like us. I was like about to head over there. was at a top golf. So I was like, let me go over here and like get a couple of swings in before I head over to the, and that shit came out, bro. was like, wow, think this is over. I think this is over, bro. Give me a couple of crazy stories from the road, man. The one that I've told in the past that is pretty funny is

I was, I brought my 14 year old, or maybe he was 13, he was young, cousin on the road to sell merch. I figured he's, his dad had recently passed. And so I was trying to like, have him come out and maybe learn a trade and basically, get some direction. And so we're on this tour and he's selling merch and everyone,

Obviously smoking around him, but he's not smoking. And so basically, as you know, once you start getting to the point where you're about to cross the border, it's a whole new game. So basically, we all know we've been doing this for hell of a long, everyone gets their last big smokes in and then we clean the bus, right? And then, know, to give going to Canada, you know? We know it, it's a long, we've done it a million times and so it's a regular, you know? And so basically we

We get to the border and then the guy, you know, as normal, they take us off the bus and they start going onto the bus. And, and so we're sitting in the, you know, the room or whatever. It's like the office, you know, the waiting area or whatever. And the guy comes in and he goes, okay, who has the dope? Right. And now mind

I've been through this before where they just say it and then. they've said the exact same thing to me, bro, a million times. It's just like what they do. And so I'm like, yeah, right. Nobody, you know, he goes, all right, well, who's the manager? I'm like, you know, he goes, in here, you know, talks and he goes, he goes, who he goes, I go, look, man.

Ashanti Abdullah (51:14.286)
we've been through this, we go through this all the time. I've been doing this 20 years, like we know not to bring contraband across the border. He goes, all right, well, who's in the third bunk, the bottom bunk on the middle or whatever? And I'm like, oh, that's my little cousin. He don't smoke. So I know you fucking own some shit, right? And so he goes, go get him. And so he comes in and they're

asking him and I'm like, he done smoke and he's like, I don't smoke and he goes empty your pockets. And so he empties his pockets and lo and behold, there's a bud. And I look at him, like the look on my face was like, what the fuck? And he goes, where's the rest of it? And my little cousin literally starts crying and goes, it's in the, in behind the pillow.

and this fool had a stash. And because no one knew he was smoking, no one could school him on. That's amazing, bro. And so the funny part of it, it's pretty funny, but what's even funnier is then he goes, realizes, the cop realizes how mad I am. He could see it in my eyes. And so he knows that I wasn't in on it, right? Yeah. And so he goes, he goes, all right, tell me one reason why I

seize this bus and put you all in jail is what he says, but he's winking at me, you know? And I go, okay, I know where this is going. He goes, because they're good people and they're my family and whatever. And he goes, all right, write, write all this down. I want you to write an apology. And he sends him off to write this, this note of, you know, I'm sorry, and we shouldn't do this. And we're all good people and blah, blah, blah, blah. And he goes,

And so he goes off and he looks at me, goes, hey man, don't be too hard on him, man. goes, don't worry, man. We're not gonna do nothing. He goes, we're looking for Tony Montana, not Cheech's mom. What is one thing you would leave people with? Well, I think any app that is focused on making the life of a tour manager easier.

Ashanti Abdullah (53:38.43)
is great to me. I'm still figuring it out, but I'm looking forward to where it's gonna go because again, like the days of like, know, the ease, everything's with the phone now, so the ease that people can access this information. And as you know, as a tour manager, you be on tour and you have dudes asking you every day the same questions. And it's like, now you can be like, looking your turmoil.

You know what I'm saying? And so, you know, those type of... It takes a little bit during the transition period for people to stop totally asking. But after a while, you get to the point where people know automatically they're going to look at it and get the information and save you from having to ask what time is soundcheck for the 18th time. Yeah, for sure.

Anything about the music business that you want to leave people with? Don't understand that failure and rejection is a part of the journey. And everyone who has, who's been successful has a story or rejection. And so don't let it stop you. you believe in yourself, you know, just continue to work no matter who tells you you're a bullshit. Everyone has a story.

Appreciate you being on the show. We'll talk to you soon. All right, All right, And that's a wrap for today's episode of the loadout. If you enjoyed the episode, please subscribe, rate and review on your favorite podcast platform. Follow me on social media at probably Ashanti or at Turnwheel on all platforms. Thanks for tuning in. Until next time, keep buying those tickets. Peace.