Episode 5 - Zack Johnson

Ashanti (0:0.891)
Zach, my dog, what's going on?

ZJ (0:3.656)
What's happening, Ashanti?

Ashanti (0:5.837)
man, it's a dude, I'm real stoked to have you on today. I think because you're on a side that a lot of people don't really know about. It's kind of it's mysterious unless you're actually an artist. And I think that's what excites me about having you on today. How are you feeling?

ZJ (0:22.894)
Appreciate it. I'm happy to be alive and to still be in the game. Two decades later.

Ashanti (0:28.689)
My man. Two decades later, we go back a ways, man, at least 10 years or something of that nature. And we've always just gotten down to business. So I'm actually stoked to have you on because I got all kinds of questions for you. with like, did this start? How did you end up an agent? Like how did that end up being your thing?

ZJ (0:52.598)
I was a musician. I was in a band out of high school that we had some really good success and signed with a big management company. We're out of North Carolina, so there were basically two managers in the state and we got one of them. So we were weekend warriors. We did some pretty big tours. We did a Warped tour.

Ashanti (1:13.264)
Nice.

ZJ (1:20.479)
Aerosmith tour, Kid Rock tour, and that was during and then after college. And then the road, know, after we toured for about a decade, internationally, and I realized that my agent at the time was making more than I was at the end of the tour.
And I was always a math guy, so the agent side made sense. Management was, you know, it just seemed too loose of a job title for me. I'm more a numbers guy. So I called our agent at the time and said, hey, I want to learn what you do. And he was three and a half hours away. And he said, okay.

Ashanti (1:58.372)
Right, right.

ZJ (2:16.213)
come down here. So I started going two to three days a week, man.

Ashanti (2:20.113)
Damn.

Ashanti (2:31.281)
It's okay. That's fine. I can edit that out. So you'll just start over. You started going three days a week.

ZJ (2:33.974)
Okay.

ZJ (2:37.708)
I started driving down three days a week, called all my buddies that were already in bands that we were touring with, and that's kind where the initial roster started. Eventually he got out of the biz and I took over 2006 maybe? Like that, it's been a minute. And then things just progressed from there.

Ashanti (2:59.280)
Okay.

ZJ (3:9.280)
Again, just started with signing my friends' bands and some had success and kind of rode that wave. Had job offers from some of the big dogs and just felt like I knew enough to not go work as an assistant somewhere.

Ashanti (3:29.989)
Right, right, right.

ZJ (3:31.851)
And I'm glad I chose that path because, you know, when you got to work to eat, you get down to business. So yeah, so really started about 04, it's been about 20 years, at least on the agency side, and then touring since 96, basically.

Ashanti (3:45.073)
This is true.

Ashanti (3:59.973)
Gotcha. Gotcha. You so you you started off with your friends and then just kind of started building from there. How did you end up because I mean you've had some you've had some and have some pretty heavyweight cats on your roster. Excuse me on your roster and especially from like the hip hop side. What like brought you into that side of the world?

ZJ (4:26.437)
Um, always a big fan, um, of hip hop and knew it pretty well and can speak it well. And, you know, I think the passion for at least what, you know, our golden era of hip hop in the nineties, uh, has stuck with me. And so, um, you know, it's.
That golden era is harder to book now as we know, but it's coming up on the 20th and 25th and 30th anniversaries. So we'll see who wants to go out and work. But, you know, it's a small network of folks. you know, you do a good job with one of them and then they're looking to make a change. Hopefully you get the call. Hopefully you, you know, sell them on the business side and then it continues to grow. So.
Yeah, we've got some big dogs. And I love, especially now, just having the conversations about concerts 25 years ago or 20 years ago. really is, man. It's hard to believe it's been that long. seeing some of these guys dilated was one that I saw.

Ashanti (5:38.641)
That's crazy.

ZJ (5:52.710)
back in college, went to UNC Chapel Hill. They were playing the Cat's Cradle. I think it was them.

Ashanti (5:57.540)
Mm

ZJ (6:2.792)
And oh man, I should remember.
Far side.

Ashanti (6:11.131)
Ha ha.

ZJ (6:14.812)
Almost life -changing at that point, was super, know, was... Chapel Hill at that time, the roots were everything, you know, and that whole scene, so... You know, very impressionable back then and even to this day. It was just great. God, Boom Bap show and, you know, the energy was crazy.

Ashanti (6:23.727)
Mm

Ashanti (6:37.049)
It's different. It's different now, but there was definitely an era for sure. I mean, people still come out for these shows and they still enjoy them, but it was a very different era back then. It was like kind of scrappy, man. Everyone was just kind of getting it in. Do you know what mean? It was a very different thing. Now it's like it's like shit is serious. You know what I'm saying? People have like in -ear monitors and like, you know, it's a serious thing now. Back then it was just like, get all your boys on stage and fucking freestyle. You know what mean?

ZJ (6:48.112)
Yeah. Yeah.

ZJ (7:0.218)
Which I Right. Yeah. Which, you know, I appreciate both sides. I love, you know, the artists that really have their shit together these days. And, you know, a lot, it is much different on that front, just also the business side. feel like the ones that are savvy enough to either go read about it or, you know, watch podcasts about it or whatever.

Ashanti (7:11.717)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Ashanti (7:26.086)
Yeah.

ZJ (7:29.249)
You know, their careers, you know, they may not be drawn as heavy as maybe a larger act, but if they can make up for it on the business side, you know, you can create a real career. Something you can rely on, even if it's just one tour a year. Hey man, you know what? Every summer I want to go out for eight weeks. That's it for the year. You can plan around your kids' or, you know, camps or whatever, but to be able to do something like that once a year.

Ashanti (7:41.902)
Absolutely.

Ashanti (7:50.374)
Mm

ZJ (7:59.090)
If that's your goal, mean, that's an amazing thing to do and you can still get your rocks off rocking the stage.

Ashanti (8:7.281)
Yeah, I mean, I plenty of friends that they do their two, they're probably two runs a year. And that's 75 or 80K for them for the year. Do you know what I mean? then they do others, they don't really have to do much else, one -offs and few other things and that's it. That's how you stay in the business. But I think the thing is, is everyone jumps in and wants to be humongous and doesn't realize that there's a whole world.

ZJ (8:23.981)
Right.

Ashanti (8:33.147)
you know what I mean, of like working musicians. Like you can like make a million dollars a year. You don't have to make a hundred billion. You know what I mean? You can make a half a million a year, whatever the case is, if it's done right. I think, you know, what I always come across when I'm kind of talking to new artists and things of that nature is like, they have no idea what the difference is between a manager and agent. So for that, so for like, so for that.

ZJ (8:39.907)
Right. Right.

Ashanti (8:59.835)
Give me a little background on like what an agent does. Like what's your kind of day to day.

ZJ (9:6.750)
Um, it, it's real black and white, which again, like if you like math, um,
you know, it fits your personality. yeah, it's get in here, you know, spreadsheets for all these artists that are living in breathing documents of offers and finals and...

ZJ (9:38.400)
you know, Tetris puzzles. That's the part I love. And I was always a nerd with geography. like, I think that was another thing that drew, drew, drew this out of the business to me was, and I always loved traveling. So it's like, you know, I've been fortunate enough to travel around the world and to just the white fishes of, of the, of the world, of the U S and, um,

ZJ (10:10.293)
or thousandth of a street and you know my family lives there or I got good friends trust me like you should go play whitefish between Christmas and New Year's sell out. So sorry what was the question?

Ashanti (10:10.885)
Yeah.

Ashanti (10:28.921)
No, the question was like, what's what it is that you do? You know, that's so different. That's very different from what a manager does. Because and the reason why I'm asking is because a lot of times when you when I'm talking to her, I brought on new artists or worked with them over the years. They're like, all right, so now book me some shows. And I'm like, yeah, that's not it's not what I do. You know what I mean? Like, I can kind of do it. But that's not really we want to get you an agent, you know.

ZJ (10:32.239)
Have a

ZJ (10:49.656)
Yeah.

ZJ (10:55.650)
Yeah. So yeah, it's getting the dates on the books and where do you start, which is, you know, usually the first question. Um, when I hire an agent or with a new artist, there is, you, kind of just pick a date and you pick a market and, know, strategy behind all that, but give yourself runway to, to sell tickets. And then you build around that. Um,
So that, you know, the day to day is locking in dates, announcing tours, grabbing finals, you know, it is very mathematical. And it's fun to, you know, it's like we're commission based, so we got to go kill and we want to do good business at the same time. I'm a huge fan of repeat business. Why make it?

Ashanti (11:43.213)
Mm

ZJ (11:52.899)
harder than it needs to be. We're all here for the music. If a band's not worth 10 racks, I'm not going to ask for 10 racks. I will ask for eight and a first for one deal, but it goes off. yeah, that and then just dealing, interacting with the artist and or management, depending on what the setup is on daily.

Ashanti (11:54.682)
right.

Ashanti (12:1.317)
Right.
You

ZJ (12:24.611)
You know, then it is fun, man, especially, you know, routing international stuff to it was just it's exciting. To, you know, when you end up seeing a tour confirmed and on the band's website announced and ticket sales going, realizing you did all the work for that to happen. now. Now you've got all these humans literally now now.

Ashanti (12:45.489)
That's the coolest thing, man.

ZJ (12:51.968)
the management gets to work on the bus and host production and it sets so many people into motion and it literally they're waiting on us to get these deals contracts on deposits in. But that does feel really good. And like when a tour kicks off, it's great to go to night one or night two. And, hopefully somebody gives you from one of the teams gives you a high five and a thank you.

Ashanti (12:55.631)
That's yeah, that's when we pick it up.

Ashanti (13:4.923)
You

ZJ (13:20.955)
because then they're off, you know what I mean? It'd go off to school, to kindergarten. It's a proud moment, to be honest.

Ashanti (13:22.693)
Yeah, right.

Ashanti (13:29.531)
Yeah, I like feeling you know, the show is kind of about peeling the peeling back the onion of how this all works. And it's so funny that when I sit down, well, you the you said spreadsheets, right? You use spreadsheets, but I did want to let you know, you know, there's an app for that. But no, like sitting down and being like, all right.
from our side when once you're done and you've done the routing and you've got the you've got the guarantees in or whether they're you know what the deals are and we sit down with the artists they're always just kind of blown away at the different I'm like oh yeah I'm sorry I forgot to tell you this is an I have I said all the time this part of it is its own business like this part of what you're doing is its own business right so like we now look at our side and then have to look at all the numbers and make it work and and be like okay this budget works it'll work out for us
If we do it. So it takes it takes a lot of like keen sense to be able to continue to tour because how many times if you I mean, I've seen it a million times somebody gets a tour they always spend and they're like shit. I don't know if I want to do this. Do you know what I mean? Like this might not be for me because they don't realize that it is you put up the money and it comes back, you know, and that's how it works and you got it. You got to make your way out there. So it's not for the faint of heart either. I think people kind of
get excited and just think, oh, I'll just jump on the tour. And it's like, no, there's a lot more detail that actually goes into that, you know.

ZJ (14:55.815)
That honey face definitely, if you're on an eight week or you know, those first few days are fun. then depending on what your role is, you know, it's like anything else, man. It, you know, start, it can feel like a job, but you know, you, you think about, especially if you're on a, on a tour when school's in, those are my favorite ones. It was like, now I'd be going to class, you know, tour bus now and

Ashanti (15:2.118)
Oof.

ZJ (15:23.206)
I don't care if I'm paying to be here. That was my job. Because I'm not in school. We're working a nine to five.

Ashanti (15:26.555)
You

Ashanti (15:31.803)
That's amazing.

Ashanti (15:36.091)
Going back to your journey, you... So you started off in North Carolina or you were out in LA? Okay.

ZJ (15:43.641)
Nope, Carolina guy.

Ashanti (15:47.329)
What brought you to the

ZJ (15:50.558)
After college, my now wife and I moved to San Diego. So that would have been about the same time, oh five maybe, started there and then ended up up in LA and then came back here 2020. So almost whatever, that's a lot of years. Just, and the timing was right. I mean, after college, no real expenses.

Ashanti (16:0.624)
Mm

ZJ (16:20.409)
And San Diego was great because, you know, just started doing the rounds. I knew enough people, but I had to get out there. like, this is funny. the Dirty Head Slightly Stupid Tour was here, Common Kings, a couple weeks ago, and I took all the guys golfing, which I won, by the way.

Ashanti (16:28.731)
Yeah.

ZJ (16:50.617)
Uh.
But I... I...

Ashanti (16:53.201)
Okay, so we got, let's throw something on the table right now. Well, after this, we'll talk about that. We'll talk about the golf kit.

ZJ (17:1.606)
But I had gone out to a show at Canes in San Diego and Dirty Heads were on stage. It was them and I had a band at the time called the B Foundation. were on it and Dirty Heads blew me away. Even then it was just the two of them rhyming and a DJ. Oh, they had the conga. They had the percussion player too. But, know, I didn't have any cards after the show. I walked up like, yo.
I want to book you guys. I had AfroMan at the time. So that was kind of my, here's my lead. And I handed my, you know, wrote my name down on a napkin and gave it to Duddy. And Monday morning the manager called, you know, and anyways, we played golf a few weeks ago and I told him the story. I'm not sure he fully remembered, but you know, that was a long time ago, but.

Ashanti (17:32.443)
That was, yeah, that's how you, yeah.

ZJ (17:55.299)
Anyways, got to San Diego and just got out there hustling, you know, and met a lot of folks that I still do business with today. So, you know, was like, putting my time out there. It feels really good to be back home though. And, you know, obviously at this point, my career can do it from anywhere. But no.

Ashanti (17:59.397)
Mm

Ashanti (18:4.433)
amazing.

Ashanti (18:11.333)
Yeah, yeah.

Ashanti (18:16.185)
Right, right. You don't have to necessarily be in the mix at this point. Yeah. You you tell me about some of I mean, now I'm going to get into the sticky of it. Tell me about some of your what's the or actually, for the for the younger group that are here listening, what is your favorite? Like who what is the favorite type of artists for you? Like what works the best for you?

ZJ (18:43.833)
Dude, you know what? don't really have it. There's not an answer there. I'm a mixed bag, dude. Which I think has helped in many ways and also hurt, you know? Because there are agents that stay super -nitched. And that works if you have an artist that blows up and then you sign 10 more just like it and you...

Ashanti (18:49.317)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Ashanti (18:56.687)
Yeah, yeah.
Yep.

Ashanti (19:6.905)
Yeah, because everyone's in that. Yeah, in that vein.

ZJ (19:12.057)
I, you know, my longest client is a Michael Jackson theater show that started in the jazz program at Carolina and Duke. And we've been, we've been doing business together for 20 years and it's worldwide. just announced, um, an Australian tour. Uh, it's, you know, it's big business. So everything from that to little brother, you know, uh,

Ashanti (19:21.998)
Oh

Ashanti (19:27.653)
That's wild.

Ashanti (19:39.759)
Right, right, right.

ZJ (19:41.036)
Or that one guy who's the unique pipe playing, know, trippy, mushroom, everything, jam band festival guy, you know, so there isn't, you know, so it makes my network, you know, like with Who's Bad, we do symphony shows. It's like everything, you know, the spectrum is so wide. So it makes the Rolodex

Ashanti (19:53.476)
Right.

Ashanti (20:2.085)
Right.

ZJ (20:9.725)
extremely interesting. But because it's not niched, you know, I'm calling new folks all the time, you know, for new business and so it makes it more challenging. But I would say

Ashanti (20:19.273)
Yeah

ZJ (20:31.582)
You know, I don't know. There isn't one type of genre that I

Ashanti (20:34.481)
There isn't one. If you had to think like your favorite, what is like the right type of artist on the business side? Like who do you like to work with on that side?

ZJ (20:45.076)
Well, anybody that gets it, man, the manager for Who's Bad and I are dear friends now, smart motherfucker. We definitely butt heads now and still didn't do, but like at the end of the day, like just really, really intelligent, not just him, like, and you know, Greaves, like same thing. We just sort of work together. Amazing conversations about.

Ashanti (20:47.888)
Yeah.

Ashanti (21:5.222)
Yeah.

ZJ (21:12.918)
You know, what's real, what's not real. Hey man, you know, whether it's him or anybody else, I'm here to work. And that doesn't mean like we're putting you on 200 shows a year. It means we're going to work hard. But like we referenced before, doing those one or two or three tours a year, nice and clean, package them up, do them every year, every other year, and know that you can rely on that for.

Ashanti (21:26.330)
Right, right.

ZJ (21:41.140)
you know, for income for yourself or your family or whatever your situation is. Um, you know, so on the rock,

ZJ (21:58.295)
Dinah Jane from Fifth Harmony getting ready to put out a new record. Her team and I go back a decade. They also manage Common Kings. Just salt of the earth folks that just, you know, man, there's no fluff, there's no BS. It's just getting the business and hey, we all got each other's back, you know, like whether it's

Ashanti (22:19.846)
Right.

ZJ (22:27.644)
an advancing issue, whatever it may be, you got to get each other's back. You're a team and the most successful teams, the ones that have that kind of comradery are the ones that are going to last. And then the word gets around, hey, this team over here is killing. And then somebody's unhappy in their situation or whatever, looking to make a change. It really helps drive more business to the company.

Ashanti (22:46.351)
Right.

Ashanti (22:56.113)
Yeah, I think ultimately, from the management side, it's always just about the fit. You know what mean? I think that people kind of they overlook that sometimes it really is about the fit like relationships go a long way, bro, like to go a long, long way. If you can hit each other and just be honest with each other, like, look, that's not gonna work. Like, I know you want $5 ,000 for this, but you're not worth $5 ,000. You know what I mean? Like that's

ZJ (23:22.493)
Yeah.

Ashanti (23:24.015)
And that's the other thing I think artists have to be realistic. Like I always try to set them up from my side and be like, yeah, that's, you know what I mean? So by the time it gets to you, it's all there's already been an argument about that. You know I mean? By the time that's why I'm like really sure that like, this is the number we have to ask for it. Cause I've argued and argued. I've thought about it. I've been like, what has he made that? You know what I mean? Like we try to, when you're cool like that, you really try to think of it that way and not just like try to hamstring your.

ZJ (23:34.985)
Right. Yeah.

Ashanti (23:54.309)
your agent partner would just like random shit. You know what mean? I think that's

ZJ (23:58.152)
Exactly. think management of expectations is everything in this business. And the more real you are, I mean, it's got to go both ways. The client has to be just as real. dude, you spend less time on the fluff, man, and just getting down to business. And something's booked in on the books, and you're already thinking 18 down the road. That's the way to do business. It's not.

Ashanti (24:3.333)
Yeah.

Ashanti (24:22.455)
Next. Yeah.

ZJ (24:26.247)
Let's overthink paralysis from analysis. We're stuck on, oh man, we need another 500 or 5 ,000 on the show. Man, get the best deal you can, keep it moving. Unless it's your final show and you need the most bread that you can. Like this is going to be a repeat business. let's, hey, let's all make some, some bread, have a good night and, and, and keep it moving. I think that's the keeping it moving part is, is big for me.

Ashanti (24:29.850)
Yep.

Ashanti (24:33.903)
Yes.
Yeah, at the end of the day.

Ashanti (24:51.567)
I think like...

Ashanti (24:55.803)
There's also like, and you know this, can get like, I don't think people realize how complicated this shit is. It can get complicated, right? Like you guys are wizards, but at the end of the day, like, you know, there might be, I'm not going to name any names because I don't, cause some people might know some specifics if I name names, but, uh, and not in a negative way, just in like the way that the business works. Um, there's been situations where like, I've had to have, I've had to have a discussion with our agent to have a discussion.

ZJ (25:11.899)
Yeah.

Ashanti (25:23.609)
with getting two different offers in one market and one offer is better than the other, but we have a better relationship with the lower offer and you have to be like, yo, I promise you we're coming through you on the next one, but we have to take this one because it's a money play. It is what it is. Or you turn down a larger offer because of your relationship with that person and you know that there will be repeat business with them. Whereas you don't really know about the other situation. You might not know that person and

ZJ (25:30.942)
right.

ZJ (25:39.047)
Yeah. Yeah.

ZJ (25:44.270)
Right. Right.

Ashanti (25:52.827)
You know, I've also had it where we use the same. We've I've made that mistake of use the same person, same promoter, same promoter every time. And another promoter comes along and offers a lot more money. And we're like, we'll give it a shot. And then we're chasing them down for money. Do you know what I mean? Like it's it's it's it's. Yeah.

ZJ (26:8.867)
It's a fine line. mean, you don't put, you know, I get it when artists need that extra bread. I also, if we could all be in a position to where the money didn't matter, then of course I'd take, you know, the homey promoter. But they also get comfortable with the show. Like maybe you do it five years in a row, things are just sitting at the same number and hey, we need to try something new to rock the book. So it's...

Ashanti (26:20.986)
Yeah.

Ashanti (26:29.712)
Yep.

Ashanti (26:35.121)
Try something fun. Yeah. No.

ZJ (26:38.764)
And then, you know, it's hard to make up. You can't make everybody happy all the time doing this. We'll get pissed off all the time, myself included. It's better to just walk away, come back and then just try to have those real conversations. You know, just any businessman, you know, I mean, it's the ebbs and flow of this one, especially, know, like the cancel, you know, like the whole meltdown.

Ashanti (26:45.733)
No.

Ashanti (26:55.419)
Yeah.
Yeah.

ZJ (27:7.126)
a few weeks ago with all the flights getting canceled and had to cancel I don't even know how many dates you know and here we were getting the info was it Friday or it was Thursday night

Ashanti (27:9.381)
Yeah man, that was wild.

Ashanti (27:22.789)
Mm

ZJ (27:24.649)
that the storm came or the was it was it connected to the storm i think in two separate things

Ashanti (27:29.751)
No, CrowdStrike, it was the CrowdStrike thing where their software went down. I know because I was in Miami at the time and like I didn't get affected, but my friends did that were flying around. It was a whole thing where like, long story, I actually have a really good friend of mine who was supposed to be the flight attendant on my flight and she had like worked it out to be that way and then she got stuck in LA and then was, I was pretty pissed because I was like, man, it's the first time I'm ever gonna fly on one of your flights. You know what I mean? After all these years, you know, but yeah.

ZJ (27:55.073)
Yeah Yeah So just you know like a scenario like that we had a you know a lot of the artists fly day of It's just it's more cost -effective fly everything right now, but adding another night of hotels Ground blah blah blah so most the time you take the if you can get an artist to take the first flight out in case there delays whatever so

Ashanti (28:8.377)
way more.

Ashanti (28:13.979)
Yeah.

ZJ (28:21.986)
you know, lot of our artists by day of, and that day we had to cancel tons of shows and you know, I would say 80 % of buyers got it. And then there are others that were just like upset and you're like.

Ashanti (28:35.078)
What do you want me to do here?

ZJ (28:38.014)
It was like COVID all over again for a short second, you know, it was just like our hand tied. And then I think about this, like we had another tour where the bus had already already left. So you have the band sitting on the bus for the weekend and then maybe the singers flying in, they didn't get to make it. The bus had to turn back around and come home. And think how much the band lost.

Ashanti (28:42.629)
Yeah.

Ashanti (28:50.700)
Mmm.

Ashanti (29:2.161)
mean, that's so expensive. Yeah, that's so expensive. don't and that like, yeah, man, I mean, I'm you know what world I come from. I come from the world of resource being resourceful. And I mean, literally, that's why, you know, ended up creating turn wells because I wanted to other people to be as resourceful as possible and come home with as much money as possible.
So when I see those types of things, just like, I start cringing because I'm like, oh, I know exactly how much that cost. You know what I mean? Like, damn, they lost that money or, you know, I my wife. She makes a lot of fun of me because having fun at shows is, it's so rare for me. I walk in and I'm like, wow, that staging costs this much. Wow. Those lights, you know, like that's how I think of it. I'm like, what was the ticket price? Like, this is all going through my head. And I'm like, man, they made this amount, you know, like that's what's like.

ZJ (29:28.701)
Yeah.

ZJ (29:43.850)
Yeah

ZJ (29:53.226)
Same.

Ashanti (29:53.649)
That's how my mind works. You know what I mean? but yeah, I think about that a lot on those types of things. to the same, know, to that stretch of being a resourceful person, like I'm fighting with artists all the time. I'm not gonna lie. Like they're like, oh yeah, we'll get in the night before. I'm like, no, you won't. And they're like, oh, we'll fly. I'm like, you're not gonna do that. You're gonna rent a van and you're gonna, and you're gonna make it happen. Like you're gonna monster that out. Like, cause it's not worth it at the end of the day.

ZJ (30:9.716)
Yeah. Right. First and last question. That's right. Yeah.

Ashanti (30:21.745)
I mean, you're doing this as you want to make money, right? I'm here to help you make, that's what we're here for.
If you want to do it for free, you don't need me. You can do this on your own. You know what mean? Like you definitely don't need me. And I get it. mean, there's like, you know, artists that dealt with artists that are like, yo, we've been doing this a long time. Like we really don't want to road warrior anymore. And I'm like, that's cool. But you didn't build it super effectively. your guarantees are still what they are. And you're a band. Does anyone want to make money here? Because it can't be that it's just me and

ZJ (30:53.440)
Right. Right.

Ashanti (30:59.833)
Me and Zach making money. Full disclosure, Zach works with, you know, outside of this, for San Francisco supply artists that I manage, Zach works with them. So we already, we have a lot of back and forth anyway, but you know, that's what I'm talking about. North Carolina, outside of just doing, just having the agency, which is Cardinal Talent, you are doing something else. What are the other things you have going on, Doug?

ZJ (31:1.075)
Right.

ZJ (31:30.101)
Yeah, we have a sports division that we started thankfully in 2020. I have a partner, Rob Wilson, that runs that. And he manages professional athletes. And

Ashanti (31:37.126)
Mm -hmm.

Ashanti (31:45.839)
Awesome.

ZJ (31:49.537)
It is like our office is, not there today, but it is like every, it was my dream as a child. Like I didn't know what I wanted to do when I was older, but music and sports were it. Um, so he, um, he's in New York a lot, um, and deals with, uh, mean, MLB, NBA, NFL, and recently, um, Bayern Munich.

Ashanti (32:0.539)
Yeah.

ZJ (32:19.403)
got that gig for the US, which is pretty cool.

Ashanti (32:21.487)
Wow, that's super cool, man.

ZJ (32:24.120)
Yeah. So he's been in Germany a bunch, but so we do that. And then, you know, started a talent buyer division. Once I moved back as well, you know, it's the same cats doing shows here when I was in high school that own venues or maybe don't own venues. And I just felt like there was still opportunity for to bring other stuff to town. So.

Ashanti (32:38.128)
Mm

Ashanti (32:51.366)
Yeah.

ZJ (32:53.621)
We, the Rialto's are number one. It's actually a old movie theater next to my elementary school that was for sale. And, uh, it's pretty cool story real quick. I tried to buy it and we basically pushed along this investment group in front of us. Uh, the press came out about the investment group and I realized the main guy.
I went to middle school with. I hit him. haven't taught this dude in 30, I don't see, 30 some years. And said, hey dude, I'd love to do concerts. If you're doing movies, I'll do the concerts. Just, mean, literally the music room in my elementary school, if you walk out the back door of the Rialto where the loading is, you could throw a rock and hit the music room. like circle, you know, moment.

Ashanti (33:24.152)
Yeah.

Ashanti (33:31.451)
Gotcha.

Ashanti (33:47.761)
That's awesome.

ZJ (33:52.614)
So the Rialto 450 cap seated beautiful old room and we do mostly Americana we do some symphony shows we do some here's the mixed bag again We do we've got Joan Osborne next month. We got Cora Blund. We've got Phil Vassar
That's a little snapshot of what we got. And then we do, I do some outdoor stuff. There are a couple breweries that we've partnered with, done some reggae, done some hip hop. So I think this year we'll end up doing about 70 shows, which is pretty significant. But I've got a good team of experienced folks.

Ashanti (34:26.574)
Mm

Ashanti (34:33.275)
Woo.
Phew.

ZJ (34:40.300)
here and in South Carolina that have been doing it just as long as me. So I basically called the home. He's like, Hey, let's put a team together. Let's go do what, you know, we should have been doing for the last 20 years on the buyer side. But it's going really, it's going great, man. And it's, you know, it's kind of re -energized me because it's more creative than just the agency side. So, you know, I like doing the artwork, being involved in all that, being involved with curating a lineup.

Ashanti (34:46.964)
Yeah

Ashanti (34:52.496)
Yeah.

Ashanti (35:0.240)
Mm

ZJ (35:10.473)
And then, you know, it's like a tour, like putting it on, seeing people come through the door and leave happy. so that part's been fun. that's, and then the final side is we own a studio. So we have, that's downtown here in the BB &C building, but it overlooks the Red Hat amphitheater. It's super dope. 18th floor.

Ashanti (35:28.590)
Awesome.

ZJ (35:38.304)
So that's the final piece of the puzzle for us. yeah, coming out of COVID, man, it was time to diversify, you know, and realized how scary it was to rely on bands to go tour to feed my family. started doing other things and it's all, it all seems to be working.

Ashanti (35:46.277)
Yeah, for sure.

Ashanti (36:1.400)
I mean, I'm with you. I hope you know, COVID. I had the idea for turn will, you know, in 2013 14. I never you know, I'm a music guy, have no idea how to even 0%. I was always like, okay, I know if I go to San Francisco, that's where they build these things. So could probably figure it out. Right? I got completely sidetracked out here. But
once COVID happened, I was like, all right, it's time for you to fucking do your the thing you were going to do. You know what I mean? Like now when you slow down, slow your mind down, you can be like, all right, this is the thing, you know, I want to focus on. So I think a lot like looking covered, you either you either learn how to learn how to make it work or you cried a bunch. And I noticed the people that cried a bunch of the people that aren't used to being told, they aren't used to going out and making it for themselves. You know what I mean?

ZJ (36:34.744)
Yeah.

ZJ (36:55.154)
Yeah. Yeah, man.

Ashanti (36:58.031)
And I get that, I mean, that's tough. If you don't have it, you don't have it. I get that. But you know, you'll...

ZJ (37:2.379)
No. You need to be told where to plug your phone in and where the on button is on your computer.

Ashanti (37:6.095)
Yeah. Yeah, you'll be you'll you mean and you'll notice that some of these people get more and more in the music industry and people like that. You'll notice a lot of people you're working with are also starters. They're all just like these people that you innately know the right way to go. And I don't know how to explain it, but that's just kind of who we are on the business side of it. And artists come in all different shapes and sizes. Some of them.
know what they're doing. You know, some of them are a grief. Some of them are a manifest. Some of them are like that. And then some of them, they just need the extra help. They just make records and there's no wrong with that. You know what mean? Like if you're good at that, you're great at that. So yeah. One sec. Word. Yeah, I mean, awesome. We I think we can actually probably wrap up now. So.

ZJ (37:42.576)
Yeah. Yeah.

ZJ (37:58.056)
you

Ashanti (37:59.182)
Word man, I really appreciate you being on. I have a couple of like last final questions for you. The number one question I think, or actually let me get a couple things from you. Number one, tell me about one of the either it could be a tour experience where you're on tour. could be an experience where you booked a tour and you happen to go out to it. me something crazy. There's gotta be something funny in that bag of yours or a while from the time you were out.

ZJ (38:26.778)
It's probably when I was on the artist side, to be honest with you, because now you got to come in and kind of be the adult in the room. We were...

Ashanti (38:30.511)
Awesome.

Ashanti (38:39.069)
Yo, by the way, isn't that wild? I mean, I've always kind of been the adult in the room that's like been my job from the beginning, but like I couldn't imagine like transitioning, bro. There's no way.

ZJ (38:41.137)
Yeah.

ZJ (38:48.409)
Yeah, we were recording in Westlake in Hollywood and Kid Rock was supposed to come by. So we were like on the rap rock thing super early, but we had like a real MC that was winning battles here, actually beat Fonte, Fonte'll stay with that.

Ashanti (39:10.191)
What? Will he agree with that? Will he actually say that's surprising?

ZJ (39:14.901)
He will. He actually will. But we were doing the Heavy Rock stuff. so Kid Rock was interested and wanted to come check us out. So he comes out, limo. This was like at his peak, dude. Like, 01, 02, something like that. And he had just started dating Pamela. And...
They both walked through the back door and you know, dude, we were, you know, 20, 21 and walks in with Budweiser and we just proceeded just to get hammered. the singer, the singer in our band, the MC, but the singer went to Pam, you know, once we were a few sheets to the wind and, hey, we got these spaghetti strap tank tops with our logo.

Ashanti (39:47.675)
Yeah.

ZJ (40:12.610)
We only have an extra small left. Would you mind and then take a picture with us? Which this is on the internet somewhere. And she obliged right there, like, Lord, all again, like we're just kids, man. But the cool part was Kid Rock rock. I mean, he was there, he was rocking out to our stuff. We stayed in touch. We did a bunch of dates with him.

Ashanti (40:15.801)
Oh

Ashanti (40:24.913)
That's insane.

ZJ (40:40.100)
that following year, like on his big summer thing. So I don't know, for me it was, and for all of us, because then we got on a plane and flew back to North Carolina. I was working at a coffee shop. So where do you think I was? Monday morning, opening at 4 .45. That was me. But I think that kind of shock factor of the LA thing and coming home.

Ashanti (40:49.904)
Hahaha

ZJ (41:8.312)
which has always been a really nice balance to be honest, you know, it's this kind of la la world and then you come back to just reality here. then you try, know, basically what we'll be trying to do is just meld those two together for the last couple of decades. And I'm proud to say that we're still here.

Ashanti (41:10.928)
Yeah.

Ashanti (41:26.095)
Yeah, for while there I was flying in a world where there's a lot of yes people around, a lot of people wanted my attention, a lot of things like that. And what was always fun for me was if I was in town on a Tuesday, I'd fly fish at my grandma's and Sundays we had breakfast and they'd be like, oh, how's your little music thing going? And that was that. Do you know what I mean? There's no like, they have zero understanding of anything that's going on. You're like, do you know who I was with?

ZJ (41:48.182)
Right. Yes.

Ashanti (41:55.919)
Like, you know what mean? But it doesn't matter to them. They don't give a shit. And that's what makes it great. Like, I actually kind of love that about my wife these days, because, you know, as much as I've tried to stay out of this, I'm back in it. It is what it is. I'm traveling around. I'm at a lot of shows. I'm talking to all my old friends and so on and so forth. And she's just like, oh, who's that? You know what I mean? Like, oh, that's cool. Little rap stuff. You know what I mean? Or your little this or she don't care. She doesn't know, like, zero interest.

ZJ (42:3.563)
Me too.

Ashanti (42:23.959)
except for Kendrick. Kendrick's one that she is like a huge fan of, so like obviously. And all your family's gonna have that I remember one year at Soundset, my mom never, she always came, I mean just eating burgers with De La Soul, has no idea who they are, you know, backstage. They're just chopping it up, hanging out with Slaughterhouse. I mean, they love my mom, right? Like, it so random.

ZJ (42:45.568)
Yeah.

Ashanti (42:46.843)
But boy, boy, boy, when the year we had Ice Cube, oh, it was over. My mom was, she made sure she had her badge on, she was on stage, like that was the shit for her, you know what mean? So they all have one. What?

ZJ (42:57.983)
What a cool moment for you though. What a cool moment for you. You know what I mean? Not that you need the validation, but we always like when our parents make us feel good. So you seeing her happy, rocking out the cube had to be pretty fulfilling, I would think.

Ashanti (43:2.670)
Yeah, yeah.

Ashanti (43:10.693)
Yeah.

Ashanti (43:18.349)
I she even brought a friend, her friend was super, I was like, yo, this is dope. It'd be so, I mean, I'm not even kidding. I remember she, was driving cart, I was driving my cart and I was running around doing something. was backstage, just back corner still at Canterbury. And I looked to the right, my mom's like sitting down. This is with Slaughterhouse. She's sitting down, she's talking to these guys and I see her like eating. And I'm like.
And I see her talking, talking, talking to Joe Button, right? And she comes like, Oh, hey, mom, she's like, Oh, hey, let me jump in the car with you. She's like, those are some nice guys. Who are they? You know what I mean? that? Okay, mom, like it's that shit is hilarious to me. And I love it. I love it. I actually love that. My wife, my wife's bored. She hates backstage. She's not her jam. You know what mean? She's like, I don't even want to go. Like, this is gonna be boring. Like, so it's kind of cool. And they, you know, we're doing business always. We're always on on par.
Get what if you had to leave the people with something, whether it be artists that are, you know, trying to trying to get an agent or artists that are trying to make it in this world, what's one thing you leave them with? Like, what's your golden, your golden rule or your golden thought process?

ZJ (44:29.360)
Man, it's a grind. think if you're looking for quick money, quick success, know, go find something else. I think the best, you know,

Ashanti (44:37.125)
Yeah.

ZJ (44:40.639)
I think most musicians do write most of their best stuff in their rooms when they're teens. But you, you know, I feel, I think that's where it starts. think the longer you can stay in it, which it's so different now than, the nineties. I feel like the days of, you know, artists having 30 year careers, it's, it, that's not going to happen anymore. Unless you're at, unless you're a Taylor Swift, like the middle class of
artists. It's a grind. think if you're willing to accept it as a lifelong and look, a lifelong commitment, it doesn't have to be every year like we're just talking about. could be a one month tour, but as long as you keep dipping your toe in and you know, I think you can stay relevant. But it is a marathon. It's not a sprint. You treat it like that.

Ashanti (45:26.214)
Yeah.

ZJ (45:39.440)
and you throw in some business acumen, you know, it can be extremely rewarding.

Ashanti (45:47.333)
Yeah, yeah, you. And then I'll cut this separately. Anything you want. Oh, damn. Oh, yeah, you can hear it. I don't think I hopefully that's not. Is it still going? I got noise canceling headphones on and then anything you want to say about turn well, I usually chop something in about that.

ZJ (45:55.709)
I think you're probably just done. I just heard.

ZJ (46:14.256)
I mean, I love that you took the action, you know, like that's the hardest part. think that was the nice thing about COVID. Everything did slow down, but you also had the time, you know, better or worse to, you know, take an idea and put it on paper and go raise money. you know, like people talk all the time.

Ashanti (46:18.501)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Ashanti (46:43.494)
Yeah.

ZJ (46:43.973)
You know, put your money where your mouth is and I think you're going to do great. The software is dope and it comes from the right spot. You're not just a tech guy that did one tour and now you know everything about you have seen all out there. So, um, I mean, I wish you best of luck and, don't stop. And, you know, I've seen kind of our generation lately. Now we're stepping up on the tech side in the music biz.
Well, in all facets of the business, and it's our time now, and it's our time to be the owner, president, whatever your role may be, it's our time now. And we should not be, we should just be proud of that and we should harness it. And we do have things to share and yours is wheel and you've put it on paper and, and, you know, go man, go like we fully support you over here. So, um,

Ashanti (47:12.347)
Yeah. True. Yeah.

Ashanti (47:29.807)
Yeah.

Ashanti (47:36.975)
Yeah, I appreciate that man. Yeah, you're right. It's it is it is how weird is it though to go from an intern to go from this part to go from that part be where you're at and then look back and like, wait, I'm the one making the decision. am like you said I am the I'm the adult now this shit is crazy. Like who gave me the keys you know, but it's that year it's year man it you got paid dues. You know what I mean? You got to pay dues you got to get punched in the mouth a few times.

ZJ (47:56.228)
Yeah. Right. Aye.

ZJ (48:2.925)
Yeah. Oh, you are some. Yeah, you don't know you are. Especially when you're young, you're just doing it. You know, don't see it as paying dues. think as we got into our thirties, you know, certainly started feeling like a job, but also like, shit, I'm still here. So something must be working, you know, and, and, you know, being independent, you know,

Ashanti (48:11.054)
Mm

Ashanti (48:22.966)
Yeah.

ZJ (48:29.145)
and coming up with ideas and putting them on paper whether it's Turnwheel or an agency, it's hard. It's really hard. people tell you no and you shouldn't do that and you can't do that. fuck all the... Do what you want to do and surround yourself with people that support that. That's all you need. You don't need 10 ,000 people. You need five people that believe in you and that's it.

Ashanti (48:36.912)
Yeah.

Ashanti (48:40.783)
That's mostly what you get.

Ashanti (48:54.523)
solid. That's where you start. And it's the same. It's the same with music. You start with five that decide far of that five that believe with you and you just grow from there. Well, man, I I'm ecstatic you joined and you did it. You were down like immediately. That's awesome. I'm so glad you came in and ran here and we had some time to chat today. I will be in North Carolina to play you in golf. That's a for sure.

ZJ (48:58.156)
Yep. Yep.
Yeah.

ZJ (49:18.136)
Shit.

Ashanti (49:20.290)
I don't know if I'll be here. I'm not going to talk about where we're at in our golf game. I just want to see it. That's all. That's all. Yeah, but I appreciate your time, man. And I just want to say it's so cool to like have reconnected with you right after COVID. And you'd be like, oh, no, I'm up. Come on in. Well, let's do it. We've actually expanded. I love that, dude. I absolutely love that. No, no sob story from you.

ZJ (49:27.009)
Okay.

ZJ (49:37.334)
Yeah.

Ashanti (49:45.677)
And I really appreciate that. And I'm just stoked to see you like expanding and doing other things outside of, you know, just the way you started being, you know, I mean, that's, we got that spirit, bro. That's kind of why we get along. You got to be scrappy and just get it done. So thanks for coming on. I will talk to you soon, my friend. All right.

ZJ (49:53.677)
Yeah.

ZJ (50:3.615)
Alright man, peace.