Episode 6 - Budo

Ashanti (0:0.568)
Budo, motherfucking Budo. Bro, the excitement to have you here is extremely high. We've been friends for a really long time and I don't know how many chats we've had in life. Normally about music generally, but this time it's gonna be about you. How do you feel about that?

Josh (0:2.099)
My friend. My friend.
I've been to heavy ears and extremely heavy ears.

Josh (0:22.888)
Deeply anxious. Yeah man, we've been friends for, I don't know, pushing 20 years, at least 15. Yeah, it's kind of like tracing the contours of our connection. I'm driving to the studio this morning and yeah, no, it's been a long time. So I'm just excited to chat. definitely, I don't spend a lot of time. I have a three and a half year old, so I don't spend very much time.

Ashanti (0:24.098)
No.

Ashanti (0:30.754)
Yeah, definitely.

Josh (0:48.596)
talking or thinking about myself these days. So I might be a little out of practice, but I'm excited to chat.

Ashanti (0:49.314)
Hahaha

Ashanti (0:54.916)
No, that's all good, man. Exciting. Let's just jump right in, bro. How did you first get into music? Like in the music production and like hip hop in particular, really?

Josh (1:6.824)
Yeah, it's a good question. I started playing trumpet in like fourth grade. There was a music program in elementary school near me. Um, and just, I remember playing Hoagy Carmichael's Stardust at a, like a school recital at the end of the year. it was, um, it was intoxicating. It was the first time like I, you know, I played it well. I got up on stage and I got this like standing ovation and it was, uh,
Yeah, it was like the first time that I experienced that type of, I mean, obviously I was fucking 10, but I got this like feedback from an audience in a way that was, yeah, just intoxicating. There was a, there was a element of, of connection and of feeling like I had done a good job at something that, that felt really important to me. So, so yeah, I kept playing, played in jazz bands through, through middle school and high school. I encountered,
There was this like really rudimentary electronic music lab in my middle school. And they had like super basic versions of like, I don't know, this was in like, I guess the mid 90s. So I think it was Cubase and like these MIDI keyboards and shit. So I got to go in there and like actually figure out what it meant to, um, to play everything by myself. Um, and that was definitely my first introduction in a like music production.

Ashanti (2:8.942)
See.

Ashanti (2:25.325)
Mm

Josh (2:29.312)
I was pretty miserable in middle school, so I just kind of barricaded myself in that room and got to be the whole band. And that shit was amazing. was really, you know, the music was terrible. was like, you know, 11 or 12 or whatever. Tapes of it. I've got to track it down. I'll look in the family archive. Okay. Great. We'll sit down. We'll close the doors and see what happens.

Ashanti (2:42.784)
I doubt it. I doubt it. I'm curious. You still got it.

Ashanti (2:50.018)
Yeah, we're listening to that. I'll be in LA next month. Yeah, I'll be in LA next month. We got it.

Ashanti (2:59.064)
you

Josh (2:59.468)
Um, so yeah, I don't know. That was like, that was definitely my first introduction in a like production. And the combination of computers and music, uh, technology and music. then, I don't know, just kind of blossom from there. was a kid in Seattle in the mid nineties. I started rock band and played smashing pumpkins covers and made a lot of noise and annoyed everybody's parents. Um,
Yeah, I don't know. was like super clear from a really young age that that was the thing that I wanted to do. I had music around me as a kid. mom played piano. I got like uncles that were jazz musicians and music critics. And that was really like, it was just, yeah, it was just around. was in the air all the time. And

Ashanti (3:42.478)
That's super sick. did you end up in hip hop specifically?

Josh (3:46.942)
Yeah. Yeah. Jewish kid from Seattle. Um, uh, college, right. Right. As it turns out, as it turns out. Yeah. Um, I don't know. I just remember, you know, we, my friend in high school had a Volkswagen Passat and it was one of the, like, one of the first Passats. had like, like this blue, blue dashboard lights, blue and red dashboard lights. And the windows were crazy tinted.

Ashanti (3:50.181)
Ha
Which isn't that crazy. Honestly, that's actually pretty on, yeah, that's pretty on.

Josh (4:15.804)
and we would just drive around Seattle listening to.
The Chronic and Deltron 3030 and Tash and Alcoholics and yeah, just kind of, you know, common and like that was sort of the, this was like the late nineties, early two thousands and it was just that kind of soul querying like Neo Soul era and that shit just fucking grabbed me. Like it was this crazy.

Ashanti (4:39.064)
Mm -hmm.

Josh (4:46.752)
crazy intersection of like, you know, spirituality and music and jazz and soul and rap. And I don't know, it felt like this really amazing moment. have this like really crazy memory of going to see the OK Player Tour, I think in 1999. It was a club in Seattle called The Showbox and it was on Halloween. And the roots were all dressed like the dead presidents from the movie and like fucking dead prez was there and Talib was there. And I was just, was in the fucking front row. Like that was like a

Ashanti (5:0.632)
Mm -mm. Oh snap.

Josh (5:16.340)
really significant moment. don't know, just the music. I don't know, you fucking, you feel it, the bass hits you and there's just, I don't know, there's something about it that just grabbed me.

Ashanti (5:22.540)
Yeah, yeah. So I feel you, man. I mean, it was around me pretty early on. So it's just it's always been a part of my life. You know what mean? I heard you name some names. What are some musical influences that like people probably wouldn't know? Like people would be like, what?

Josh (5:31.999)
Yeah.

Josh (5:41.128)
Yeah. Man.

Josh (5:48.244)
That's a good question. mean, the shit in my house, like, I mean, we're talking like early, early shit, like, yeah. Man, that question is the answer that is so vast. Like, can't, it's like, know, when somebody comes up to you, like, what are you listening to lately? I'm like, I don't even know where to begin. You start thinking about it, you know, like, I just listened to the Post Malone record. That is the tip of the iceberg, so.

Ashanti (5:52.693)
Or whatever.

Ashanti (6:0.495)
Hahaha.

Ashanti (6:5.965)
Ha

Ashanti (6:9.772)
Look, look man, I mean, we were together, I don't know, what was it, a few months ago in LA with Manifest for however many days, we all stayed in a house together. And what do we, I mean, we just listen to music. That's literally all that happens. We listen to music, critique it and talk about it. So I totally get it, man. That's what it is. I do, I am curious about Budo. I've never asked you this before. What the fuck, where'd the name come from?

Josh (6:16.670)
Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (6:21.608)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (6:33.136)
Oh yeah, that was, um, that was in college and I was working with a couple of rappers and there were albums coming out and I needed a name. And, uh, I've been listening to the Miles Davis birth of the cool album, like on repeat and there's a song on there called Budo. it just, the word rolled off my tongue. I was like, do that. So yeah. Yeah.

Ashanti (6:43.849)
Mm -hmm.

Ashanti (6:49.090)
Mm -hmm. Mm.

Ashanti (6:55.414)
Resignated I didn't dude. I had no idea that's super sick actually no idea

Josh (6:59.624)
Yeah, it turns out it's a line of fitness equipment stores in Sweden and then it's also a martial art in Japan. So I get all sorts of weird social media accidental tags.

Ashanti (7:5.912)
You

Ashanti (7:13.216)
What type of martial art is it? Is it like judo? Like, is it like a...

Josh (7:18.390)
It's a sword thing. it's savage shit.

Ashanti (7:20.714)
Oh, damn, dude. That's pretty serious, bro. What's your sword skill like?

Josh (7:27.176)
Oh my level, if I was in a video game, the level would be at like a negative two. There's definitely very low. Yeah. I would have pegged you as a, a, as an archery dude, but yeah, exactly.

Ashanti (7:30.892)
Yeah, probably the same, bro. I got no sword or bowstaff skills, to be honest.

Ashanti (7:40.570)
Yeah, I've actually never, I mean, you know, I hunt right, but I've never shot up. I've never shot a bow in my life. All, with the, with the long gun. You, you've had some crazy collabs, like you've worked with great artists over all these years. Macklemore, Doja, like what are like the standouts of who you worked with and what are some interesting things you can share?

Josh (7:52.628)
Yep. Yep.

Josh (8:10.944)
Man, that's also a question like the trove is so vast that it's a little tough to wrap my head around. But yeah, I mean, guess starting at the top, like, or not even at the top, but with some of those names you mentioned, the Doja thing is amazing. Like she was, I think I met her in 2014 or 2015. She was super young. My homie, Yeti had started working with her and my friend John Tanner, who was working at a publishing company at the time, connected me with Yeti.

Ashanti (8:27.906)
Mm

Ashanti (8:39.885)
Mm

Josh (8:40.264)
And yeah, we went in and it was just a, you know, I mean, it's easy to say the shit in retrospect, but like you meet somebody and you're like, oh, that person has the thing, you know, and the thing is very vague. The thing can mean different things for different people, but like there's just a fucking specialness to that person that that is undeniable. And you can see that from the from the beginning. And honestly, I would say that about just about everybody that I've worked with, it's like gone on to something like.

Ashanti (8:49.901)
Yeah.

Ashanti (8:57.709)
Mm -hmm.

Ashanti (9:8.108)
Mm -hmm.

Josh (9:8.530)
It was kind of obvious from the jump. Kind of in the moment.

Ashanti (9:10.658)
that yeah, in hindsight, maybe even at the time. But you were like, like you were still, you were still growing with them too at the same time, I'm sure. So it's like hard to like call that out. I mean, I look back, I was just gonna say, I look back now, like people who I worked with and I'm shooting pretty high for people that ended up being, you know, doing big ass shit. Yeah, and I look back now and I'm like, duh.

Josh (9:18.548)
For sure. For sure.

Josh (9:32.606)
Yeah, yeah.

Josh (9:38.726)
Yeah, like it's obvious. Yeah. Yeah.

Ashanti (9:39.190)
You know what mean? Like duh. Yeah, it's obvious that's where that was gonna go. You know what mean?

Josh (9:43.774)
Well, and I think that there's even if you're not consciously aware of it, there's a reason that you or there's a reason that I was like pulled into those people's orbits. And there's a reason you stuck around, you know, like there's a lot of people that come across your desk or they come into your life that, that, you know, maybe talented or maybe ambitious or maybe special for litany of reasons, but just don't, they can't put all of those pieces together. And, and so, you know, you make

Ashanti (9:50.818)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Totally.

Ashanti (10:8.867)
Yeah.

Josh (10:11.046)
music with them or you work with them for a period of time and then you kind of move on and for me like it's been the people that have that I for whatever reason keep coming back to that are like okay those are the ones that like have for whatever reason like for me like have the thing that like make me want to kind of keep connecting so so yeah I think it's you could feel it one way or another yeah

Ashanti (10:19.692)
Mm

Ashanti (10:22.956)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Totally. You toured an extensive amount. Which is funny because producers usually don't tour like that. I'm like, that's wild. When you first started touring, what were those tours like? Who were you touring with at the time? Was it Greaves? Oh, okay, cool. What were those tours like?

Josh (10:35.722)
Too much.

Josh (10:46.528)
Thank you.

Josh (10:50.048)
It was griefs. was griefs. Yeah. I mean, look, I was like 25 or something. I didn't really have...

Ashanti (10:59.182)
Sure.

Josh (11:4.532)
The rest of my life was so inconsistent that touring in a fucked up way didn't seem that fucked up. And I say fucked up really endearingly. Yeah, you're like, all right, I'm living in an apartment, I'm sleeping in somebody's living room right now. So going to sleep in a van doesn't really feel that crazy. It's sort of like a rolling apartment, a rolling living room. But yeah, it was wild. I remember I was actually...

Ashanti (11:8.301)
Yeah.

Ashanti (11:13.386)
It was consistent for you, Yeah.

Ashanti (11:20.930)
Yeah.

Ashanti (11:28.962)
Mm -hmm.

Josh (11:32.556)
Hearing you say that, I remember getting the AOL instant message from Greaves in I don't know when it was, it was six or seven or something, and he was like, yo, you want to come on tour? And I was like, man, that sounds crazy, let's fucking do it. No idea what that meant, you know? No idea, like really being pretty uncomfortable on stage, being a pretty mediocre musician, being a terrible DJ, and being like, yeah, all right, I could do that, that sounds like fun.

Ashanti (11:37.944)
Yeah.

Ashanti (11:46.006)
Yeah.

Ashanti (11:52.908)
Yeah.

Josh (12:1.842)
And I mean, yeah, it was like, it was pretty, um...

Josh (12:7.840)
Reeves work ethic was something unlike anything I've ever seen like before since like he is ability to just like fucking go and go and go and go and go and you know book a book a 45 day tour and play 40 dates of that 45 day and like get the end of it be like cool I'm gonna take five days off and let's do it again was just yeah it was crazy and so it really like it kicked me into gear in that way and I think that every it's like any

Ashanti (12:11.121)
Mm

Ashanti (12:17.442)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Ashanti (12:25.538)
Yeah, just insane.
And then go back to it. Yep.

Josh (12:37.574)
Any adverse situation really challenges you to make a decision about whether or not you want to like continue. Like if the pros of that situation outweigh the cons. And yeah, it just like, there was something again, like getting back to that fourth grade moment on stage playing fucking Stardust. Like there was something so intoxicating about being in front of people and playing music that you had made in a bedroom somewhere on stage.

Ashanti (12:46.551)
Yeah.

Ashanti (12:58.520)
Yeah.

Josh (13:3.622)
And seeing people, you know, and those early years, like it was like, I remember we played one show for one person in a club called hell Providence, Rhode Island. And the fucking floor was sticky because the night before had been some kind of SNM thing. And it was like fake blood. was blood everywhere. Like it was fake blood, I think. And the only person at the show was my younger brother's best friend, Sam. And Sam showed up. Bless his fucking heart. And we played

Ashanti (13:13.698)
No

Ashanti (13:20.952)
Oh my god, bro, are you?

Josh (13:33.672)
an entire hour long set for Sam. And you're like, I don't know what else are we going to do tonight? You know, like we got it. We're to get paid whatever a hundred bucks to do this. We need the a hundred dollars. So like we got to play the show and that shit. Like it's funny. It's bootcamp, you know, like it really just forces you into a place where you have to get so good at something to be able to win over. And then, you know, the other side is you're in front of audiences.

Ashanti (13:40.066)
Yeah. Yeah.
You gotta do it.

Josh (13:58.824)
don't want to see you. Like you're doing all these opening runs, like people just want you to get out of the way so they can see whoever's out on the bill. And so you really have to like, you got to smile at people so hard when they're like mean mugging you and you have to like play the shit out of the music you're playing in order to like make it undeniable so that even if they don't like, even if they don't want to like you, like they'll end up walking away being like, man, that was, that was kind of tight, you know?

Ashanti (14:0.076)
Yeah.

Ashanti (14:26.636)
Yeah, yeah. You know, it's funny you brought up not having any idea what touring was about, because I think that that happens for everybody that someone's like, Hey, you want to jump on a tour? They're like, Sure. And there's an insane amount of shit that goes into this. You know what mean? Like, it is its business. is a business playing the music is a very small part of it, right? There's all this other shit going on behind it. So that's interesting. But

Josh (14:35.187)
Yeah.
Ha ha.

Josh (14:43.372)
Yeah, yeah

Josh (14:48.114)
Yeah

Ashanti (14:52.876)
Bigger question, so you toured with Macklemore. I'm sure that was a little bit different of a touring experience.

Josh (14:58.805)
Yeah, super different. Although it's interesting, kind of by the time, I was with Greaves for like five years and it started out in the like, know, one person at Club Hell vibe. it really progressed. it definitely, that was an incredibly satisfying experience to like, you know, tour like.

Ashanti (15:4.013)
Yeah.

Ashanti (15:9.154)
Yeah, yeah, mm -hmm.

Josh (15:19.348)
consistently for like four or five straight years and see something build and build and build and have those moments where, know, like over the court, like in year three, you're like, okay, like there's 300 people here consistently. Like that's crazy. And then you go to Europe and you're like, oh shit, like someone in France knows my music. That's crazy. And then you come back and you play the Euro thing's crazy. And I'm sure you've seen that in, uh, in the folks that you work with, like there's something, there's just something, I don't know. It's

Ashanti (15:30.157)
So, yeah.

Ashanti (15:37.336)
There's something really big to that.

Ashanti (15:43.317)
I have.

Josh (15:47.354)
Different country different languages and shit, you know

Ashanti (15:48.878)
But I'm glad you said this because I think that like, there's a lot of people, well, a lot of the newer artists, they don't even get to see the grind. They don't even get to see the like, like the label just puts a minute and they're standing in a papered room with 2 ,500 paper tickets and they're just playing their self. I think there's something to that when you really understand what it takes from day one, when you have one person up to 300, up to 500, up to whatever the deal is. So, what...

Josh (15:58.292)
No, for sure, for sure.
For sure. For sure. For sure.

Josh (16:10.549)
Yeah.

Josh (16:15.358)
Yeah, no, for sure.

Ashanti (16:17.130)
If you tell me about arena tours, they just have to be wild, bro.

Josh (16:22.392)
Yeah, they're crazy, but they're also

Josh (16:28.660)
Well, just to finish the last thought. like the Grieves thing built to a place where like the last couple of tours were buses, I think. And then it took a little time and then I wanted the Macklemore thing. so there was like sort of, and then that was like an elevator. That was an elevation far beyond anything previous, I had, I had gotten, you know, Grieves and I had gotten to a point where like there was some degree of like creature comfort in, those situations. So it wasn't like we, you know, I went from like club hell to.

Ashanti (16:35.789)
Yeah.

Ashanti (16:45.517)
Yeah.

Ashanti (16:52.202)
Mm -hmm. Yup.

Josh (16:57.984)
the club heaven or whatever like it was like there was a progression there and then yeah the the Macamor shit was the arena shit was fucking it was crazy it was really crazy like you know and the first run I did with them was in Europe in the sort of peak of like their Ben and the Macamor Ryan Lewis thing and it was like it was fucking nuts you know I mean you go over and you do like three nights at the at the O2 arena in

Ashanti (17:1.635)
Mm

Ashanti (17:8.334)
You

Ashanti (17:18.498)
Mm -hmm.

Ashanti (17:26.648)
Mm -hmm.

Josh (17:27.811)
in Dublin and
I was very disorienting. You know, mean, the show, the type of show was so different. know, Greaves and I was like me and Greaves on stage and it's very like kind of like almost punk rock, like, fuck this, like, let's see what happens kind of way. Totally. And then this, that whole thing changed. And some of that's out of necessity when you're on stage in front of like 15 ,000 people. You definitely have to like, you know.

Ashanti (17:35.085)
Hahaha!

Josh (17:58.400)
figure out like a little bit more of a structured way of doing it. But yeah, it was crazy. mean, the energy return is nuts, you know, when you think about just the factor of like the exponential factor of like intensity, like from like 500 to 15 ,000, and then you start doing festivals and you're at 50 ,000 and 75 ,000 and 100 ,000. Like, you know, you can literally like you can hear, you can feel the air moving at your face when people like cheer and shit and there's something.

Ashanti (18:7.575)
Mm

Josh (18:26.656)
you start to understand how uh, how riots happen or like how, like, how like bad people can do terrible things in front of large groups of people, because it's just this fucking mass of like energy that can really be manipulated in a way that in like a festival setting is fucking beautiful. Um, in other settings is terrifying, yeah, it crazy. It was really crazy. I mean, you know, and you go from like, you think you're sleeping in

Ashanti (18:32.357)
Ha

Ashanti (18:40.632)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ashanti (18:46.947)
Yeah.

Josh (18:55.092)
decent to nice hotels and you're like, there's a catering van. It's like cooking you fucking reindeer meatballs. you're like, you're like, it's, it's, uh, it's disorienting. And then I'd say the most disorienting piece of that, cause it took a while for like, which I guess we can get through later, but like, you know, I was touring with a Macklemore thing. took a long time for like the music that I started making with him to get to a point where it was like generating enough money that I was in a comfortable place. And so, you know, you'd go.

Ashanti (19:0.430)
hahahaha

Josh (19:23.328)
from these tours where you're flying on private jets and you're sleeping in five star hotels and then you go back to your janky rental house that's kind of falling over. That disconnect was fucking bizarre because you're in a space where you're kind of treated like royalty on a certain level and you go home and you're like, man, I can barely afford to feed myself.

Ashanti (19:32.237)
Ha
Right.

Ashanti (19:39.395)
Yeah.

Ashanti (19:47.335)
I never felt it on that kind of level, but I have felt that, you know what mean? Being someone everybody wanted to talk to at one point to like go into a different city or something and it just doesn't matter. It's pretty humbling and it's actually good. I think it's good for people to not get too ahead of themselves because ultimately like...

Josh (19:52.286)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Josh (20:4.693)
Oh yeah.

Ashanti (20:10.284)
It's the work, man. You know what I mean? It's not like you, who are you? You know what I'm saying? Like how cool are you? Speaking of those being really, really big, two things. Number one, I remember some years ago you were playing with Mack Moore and you played in Minneapolis. I was living there at the time. And me, you and my daughter went and had something to eat prior. And we came to the show and we were kind of side stage. And my daughter's like, Buddha!

Josh (20:11.644)
For sure. For sure. For sure. For sure.

Josh (20:33.130)
you

Josh (20:38.039)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ashanti (20:38.190)
She's like trying to scream at you and I'm like, yeah, it's not that kind of show, darling. He cannot hear you. You would be amazed at what she looks like today. She's taller than my wife. She's 13 and she's a whole situation. And then number two, you know, I was talking to Rock about this because from my vantage point, I'm standing on the side of the stage with a walkie talkie in my ear or something like that, like half -assed paying attention to things and whatever. So I don't really get to see it, but

Josh (20:48.817)
Man man time lies

Ashanti (21:7.566)
Rocco was saying when they played in front of 100 ,000 people, that entire group of people just became one thing. I was like, he's like, you can't even focus on anybody. You just like go after it. What's that like for you?

Josh (21:18.026)
Nah, nah.

Josh (21:21.984)
Um, it's a very, it's both extremely present. Like you're like, so, cause like, you know, to get back to the, the massive crowd, like emotional manipulation piece of this, like people that are, they're there to have the best day of their life. know, like particularly those European festivals, like people will drive from fucking Lithuania to get to Belgium to like, you know, see their favorite band or whatever. Like you look out and like, you can see everyone's holding different flags. It's like a.

Ashanti (21:33.442)
Mm -hmm.

Ashanti (21:38.381)
Yep.

Ashanti (21:45.686)
Mm -hmm.

Ashanti (21:51.320)
You

Josh (21:51.540)
like a medieval battlefield or something. So yeah, everyone's there in a very positive, with a very positive spirit, with the expectation of having fun. And so that sets you up for success. And so you get up there and people are just trying to fucking, you know, there's like a connective tissue that's really powerful and

Ashanti (22:4.301)
Mm

Josh (22:18.968)
So anyway, so there's a presence there where you're just like, I'm so in my body and so like on the stage and so like kind of connected with the thing that's happening that feels unlike, like, I don't know, pretty much everything else I do in my life, there's a little voice in the back of my head I can hear like that's sort of narrating the experience or like you're kind of watching yourself sometimes. And that's very hard to do when you're just that in something.

Ashanti (22:34.335)
You

Ashanti (22:38.115)
Yeah.

Ashanti (22:46.274)
Mm

Josh (22:46.292)
And I found that that experience was very, uh, like you get off stage and sort of like, wouldn't remember what had just happened. You know, like it was that you kind of black out and it was, it was, uh, it was really beautiful. But I'll also say that the raucous point of the eye contact thing, like, I feel like I could get up on stage in front of like a hundred thousand people and like basically like run around naked with a kazoo and like get a standing ovation. And so it's like,

Ashanti (22:53.272)
Yeah.

Ashanti (23:12.120)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Josh (23:15.358)
It's kind of easy. I know that sounds kind of insane, but like there's a, to the point about like everybody there to have a good time. it just like, it's yours to fuck up. And I think that in a smaller setting, it fucking the seventh street entry in front of a hundred people, like that's just yours to win. Like you have to go in there and kind of like fight, fight, sometimes fight to get that audience on your side. You know what I mean? So I find that like, like I just had to give a speech at.

Ashanti (23:16.600)
Yeah.

Ashanti (23:25.485)
Yeah.

Ashanti (23:30.082)
Yeah. It's easier to fuck up. Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ashanti (23:39.150)
Yeah, totally.

Josh (23:44.116)
wedding a couple weeks ago and like that shit gives me so much more anxiety than like getting on stage in front of a hundred thousand people in France you know so like it's definitely it's disorienting but it definitely yeah it's on it's on like anything else

Ashanti (23:48.627)
Ha

Ashanti (23:58.990)
Shit, I couldn't hack it with Prof at 300 people DJing. I was like, nah, I was like, I'm gonna go do some contracts or something. This isn't really like, it was too much for me, man. I couldn't handle it. And I know I couldn't handle it now. There's no way, you know what I mean?

Josh (24:5.194)
Yeah, yeah, too much.

Josh (24:16.640)
Yeah. Yeah. I'll say this though. I think that that is why, at least for me, I developed a drinking problem. like early on the anxiety of being in front of like 10 people and having to like, like, perform and be present and connected and all that shit was was too much to your point, like, I couldn't handle it. And so the anxiety there, like the only way I knew how to deal with that was to just drink. And so I think that

Ashanti (24:26.348)
Yeah.

Ashanti (24:34.776)
Mm

Ashanti (24:38.904)
Yeah.

Ashanti (24:45.218)
Yeah.

Josh (24:46.494)
that just as a sort of like asterisk to all of this. there's a lot, I think that there's a lot of functions that substance abuse serves in that space because it's a very unnatural situation to be in. So yeah, anyway.

Ashanti (24:50.274)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Ashanti (24:56.226)
Mm

Ashanti (25:1.794)
Yeah.
I think I see I think I was a little I was actually kind of aware of that. Do you know what I mean? And like having having alcoholism in my family and having to deal with those kind of things. I was like, man, I don't I don't I mean, that probably was a little bit of it subconsciously of like, yeah, I don't really want to have to drink to go because I did. I had to write like I couldn't like I'm fucking everything up if I don't have a drink. If I have a drink, I'm loose. All the transitions are happening on time. I'm not worried about it. It's, know,

Josh (25:9.128)
Yeah, for sure.

Josh (25:14.175)
for

Josh (25:21.156)
For sure.
For sure. For sure.

Josh (25:28.852)
For sure. For sure.

Josh (25:33.727)
Yeah.

Ashanti (25:35.043)
I mean, obviously as I get older, I learn about being a nerd, virgin, other things that have going on. But when I was in my twenties, I didn't know, I just drank, you So yeah, that's a lot of that kind of that plus like just not getting better when everybody else was, I think is what pushed me out of that. And being the dude that was just organized, you know what I mean? Like it just made more sense for me to step back and do a different role.

Josh (25:39.646)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (25:50.100)
Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (26:0.830)
Well, and what an act of wisdom for you to find the thing that you're good at in that space and be like, I'm going to do this shit the best that I possibly can. like there's so many, yeah, just in life, there's so many opportunities to misread the room you're in and be like, Oh, I think I could be that guy. And like, you're not that guy. You're actually the best at being the guy you are, you know, man. Yeah, they're all over. Yeah.

Ashanti (26:7.523)
Mm
Yeah.

Ashanti (26:17.932)
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, we've how many times have we seen it? How many how many people like that have we seen? Literally everywhere, dude. You've you're you're in LA now, right? Okay, you've tell me about how like, did it did it? When did you go from like?

Josh (26:30.538)
Yeah.

Josh (26:35.892)
Yeah.

Ashanti (26:43.798)
producing some local records to like producing some of these huge records and like did it just happen? You know, was it just like a mixture of you did this record and got this credit and then this person like how did all this come about?

Josh (26:57.265)
It's a good question. I still maintain that most of what I've done that's worked has just been like with my friends in a basement somewhere. there's been a lot of, not a lot, but like a good couple handfuls of like bigger cuts that have come from like random, not random, but like people that I wouldn't have over for dinner. But generally speaking, like the biggest things in my life have been just through friends. So that.

Ashanti (27:3.406)
Got you.

Ashanti (27:15.235)
Yeah.

Ashanti (27:22.915)
Yeah.

Josh (27:24.928)
is generally the path. think that the Macklemore music that came out in like 2017, 2018 opened a lot of doors for me. So I signed a publishing deal with a big publisher down here. And then you kind of go through that system where they start connecting with people and writing in rows with different artists and different writers and stuff. so that opened some doors and connected me with some people and felt like a very unnatural, uncomfortable process.

Ashanti (27:35.884)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Ashanti (27:41.816)
Mm
Mm

Josh (27:52.640)
definitely resulted in some things that worked out. But yeah, I think that most of this shit is like, you know, through the homie. And a lot of the homies like now and I'm sure you're finding this it's like, you know, I'm 41, like, I've been at this long enough. And that the people that I know that have also been at this long enough are like starting to get into like the upper echelons of the industry, you know. And yeah.

Ashanti (27:55.299)
Yeah.

Ashanti (28:3.481)
Yes.

Ashanti (28:13.710)
Yeah, you know, yeah. Dude, we, of that, had a little reunion with Tungie at Manifest and you and I, and only we're just missing Crooked, but in LA and whatever it is, 16, 15 years later, it's like, we all hung out the last time, were at Cause in Minneapolis in this little crappy place like.

Josh (28:33.450)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh (28:39.060)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

Ashanti (28:41.218)
whatever and now here's this look where you're at look where look where uh Katunji's at and look where it manifests at i mean i can't say i'm anywhere you guys definitely i'm just i'm fucking with you but yeah you it's crazy

Josh (28:48.288)
Yeah. Yeah. No, you are though. mean, statistically, you know, from 15 years ago, a cause statistically, like all of us should be at a desk somewhere, you know, or like at a gas station or whatever. Like it wasn't like, you know, the odds. And I think about this every day. The gratitude that I have for the reality that has been created for me is fucking unreal.

Ashanti (29:2.060)
Yeah, yeah, technically.

Ashanti (29:16.652)
Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (29:17.948)
I get to get up every day and take my kid to preschool and go make music and then come home and read my kid a book. And I get to make music all day long in between hanging out with my family. It's fucking crazy. Like this shit wasn't supposed to happen. And I don't mean that I came from like adverse circumstances and like was supposed to like be in prison or something. Like I just like, I was...

Ashanti (29:22.509)
Hmm.
Mm.

Ashanti (29:29.016)
Mm

Ashanti (29:33.408)
Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Josh (29:46.366)
This path is like so fucking hard and like the the the Yeah, it's just fucking hard like

Ashanti (29:49.006)
Yeah.

Ashanti (29:54.639)
I don't feel like it's either just music or prison for you. I think maybe there's some other things you could have done inside of there, I'm sure. What do you think you would have done? What would you have done? What do you think you're, no?

Josh (29:59.486)
Yeah. Yeah, there might've been some other shit.

Josh (30:7.156)
Bro, I don't know. I don't know. I had like three or four jobs out of college. I got fired from all of them. Like all of them. I'm a terrible employee. I'm a terrible employee. I hate authority. Like if I don't like to do something, I won't do it. Like I just won't. I can't. And so in some ways, and I mean, I think about this a lot too, cause like, like, like I can barely use a computer. Like.

Ashanti (30:22.026)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ashanti (30:34.111)
Ha!

Josh (30:35.424)
I don't have a resume. Like the last job I had was 20 years ago. I got fired. Like if I had to go get a job today, I'd be so fucked in terms of like, like the actual workforce. So I really, I don't know how to answer that question. And I guess that kind of gets back to like one of your first questions, which is like, when, when, when did you encounter music? And it was like, it was from a, like the age of 10 and kind of from the age of 10, that was all I ever wanted to do, you know?

Ashanti (30:43.501)
Yeah.

Ashanti (30:48.887)
I think they're

Ashanti (30:57.706)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if I believe the whole you don't know how to work a computer thing maybe to like, maybe to like do like spreadsheets or something. But I you know, when we were all hanging out last whatever many months ago it was in LA I watched you just like, man, you amazed me you guys amazed me both you it's it's wild to see you and manifest together because you guys just work so perfectly together but

Josh (31:4.522)
Ha ha ha.

Josh (31:12.820)
Yeah.

Josh (31:20.928)
Thank

Ashanti (31:24.486)
You just amazed me at the things you come up with just out of nowhere and watching you work was that was that was exciting. That was super exciting. yeah, I think back and I'm like, man, this guy had a box of bird on a wire CDs at my house. That's crazy. Remember that? like what looking back, like what are your like some of your favorite projects you worked on? I know that's hard to like.

Josh (31:29.055)
you

Josh (31:33.471)
Man, I appreciate that.

Josh (31:40.537)
Yeah, I never sold him. I do. I do.

Josh (31:53.694)
Yeah. No, it's a

Ashanti (31:54.040)
come up with, but I'm sure there's some standouts there.

Josh (31:56.928)
It's an easy answer. last, the Manifest record that will come out soon was by far my favorite record I've worked on, maybe ever. It felt effortless. I mean, to your point about just kind of like the ease with which we worked together, like that was just a, cause honestly, we hadn't, I mean, I hadn't seen the guy in like 15 years for real. Like, I don't think, I think the last time I saw him,

Ashanti (32:0.546)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ashanti (32:6.060)
Yeah.

Ashanti (32:10.541)
Yeah.

Ashanti (32:19.136)
You

Josh (32:26.408)
man, I feel like you and I and him like drove to a Best Buy parking lot or some shit in like the middle of Minneapolis and like, I don't remember what we were doing there. Something, but that would have been in like, yeah, we needed your discount code. Exactly. Exactly. The most abused discount code.

Ashanti (32:35.710)
It's highly possible picking up some bullshit, I'm sure. Using my discount, using my discount, yeah, when I worked at Best Buy corporate, A746, oh, A746, oh, A746823 or something like that. It doesn't work, I've tried it a few times. It doesn't work. He, like, what was I gonna say?

Josh (32:52.912)
Yeah, that took you off.

Ashanti (33:3.094)
Oh shit, I forgot. I lost my thought. ahead. Go ahead. Keep going.

Josh (33:4.992)
Yeah. But yeah, no, that was, that was definitely, that was up there in terms of just like my favorite experiences. Um, what else? The Macklemore record Gemini, that was also a version of effortless. Like it took more time and, and, uh, was more painstaking than the, than the manifest ship. But it was, we sat down and like in the November of 2016, we're like, all right, we're going to make a song a day for the next 30 days. And we did. And, um,

Ashanti (33:19.234)
Mm

Ashanti (33:28.984)
Hmm.
Mmm. Damn.

Josh (33:34.270)
That was like a version of...
Yeah, just getting back to that spirit of being like, you know, like I think for him, you know, he kind of been on this crazy roller coaster and he's just like, want to get back in touch with the process of making music for the sake of making music. yeah, so that shit was, that was a really beautiful experience.

Ashanti (33:39.863)
Yeah.

Ashanti (33:54.038)
If you had to pick, what's your favorite country to tour to? Is it the US or let's say outside of the US, what's been your favorite country that you've checked out on tour? Australia, why? Just because it's so opposite.

Josh (33:59.903)
Ha.

Josh (34:4.518)
Australia, Australia, New Zealand. Yeah, that's just super fun.

Josh (34:11.078)
Yeah, it's beautiful. It's just beautiful there. People are just like, there's a

Ashanti (34:13.528)
Yeah.

Josh (34:17.428)
There's a joy in the audiences there that I, it's harder to find over here. Yeah, Japan's amazing, but that shit's weird. Like, I mean, the shows are weird. The country is one of my favorite places in the whole world. But the shows are just because of the, culturally, it's so different from America, like so different. Probably the most different place I've ever been. audiences, like you'll play a song and everyone's kind of quiet and they just stop and they'll clap. You're like, the fuck is this?

Ashanti (34:22.168)
Mm

Ashanti (34:25.556)
Mm -hmm.

Ashanti (34:30.210)
Yeah, yeah.

Ashanti (34:35.820)
Mm. Mm.

Josh (34:46.706)
You're like, am I doing a bad job? Do we need to get the speakers on? What the fuck's happening here? But that is a disorienting experience. But really beautiful. Yeah, I don't know. It's probably Japan and Australia.

Ashanti (34:51.650)
Yeah.

Ashanti (35:0.278)
You, if you had to pick like, me a couple of just, there's gotta be some wild shit that's happened out on the road. That you can talk about.

Josh (35:12.956)
Yeah. Oh man. I was actually thinking the other day, we played the Grammys in 2013. That was with Macklemore. And it was, it was, we went down a few days before and the Grammy committee that year, they were doing like a bunch of mashups. So would have like Pharrell playing with, well I guess he played with Daft Punk, so it wasn't much of a mashup, but they did like.
We did same love with Madonna. And so the idea was that, you know, we play same love and then it transitions into open your heart, the Madonna song. And like, there's kind of this like mashup thing there. Um, and so we're rehearsing at SIR down here and, uh, we do a day rehearsal like just by ourselves and Madonna comes in the next day. And she walks in and like, fuck it's Madonna. Like, this is crazy. You know, fucking Madonna. She walks up and she makes.

Ashanti (35:39.522)
Mm

Ashanti (35:45.634)
Mm.

Ashanti (36:1.464)
Hahaha

Josh (36:6.752)
She makes a point of introducing herself to every single person in the room. And I would say five out of the 10 people, she offended them within about six seconds of shaking their hand. Just saying the craziest shit, like racist shit, I was just like, man, this is fucking nuts. She called Ryan.

Ashanti (36:8.810)
Mm

Ashanti (36:26.365)
Oh boy.

Josh (36:33.440)
Lewis, like she hiled him. She called him Hitler, like, because he was like, he was giving her like direction on whatever anyways, fuck it. So that was like, that was a bizarre experience. And then Queen Latifah, okay, so the concept for the show was that, you know, we do this mashup and then during it, because same love was about like, same sex marriage. And so they would, they had like 50 couples in the audience at the Grammys, and they would, they would all get married during

Ashanti (36:37.026)
Holy shit dude.

Josh (37:3.080)
like legally married during the song, say how these like marriage ceremonies and Queen Latifah was like the extremely elaborate. Yeah, it's the fucking Grammys. They don't give a shit. So anyway, yeah, Queen Latifah was like, her energy was the opposite of Madonna's. Like it was just this very like she was, she was, she was what she would expect from her, from her presence. Anyway, so, so we did all that shit and we went to the Grammys. They did a run through the day before and then the day after the actual show.

Ashanti (37:5.216)
Oh shit. Damn, this was like very, this is very expensive, man. Yeah.

Ashanti (37:23.532)
Yeah, of course.

Josh (37:32.234)
So we rehearse, get up on stage, and then I get off with my friend Greg, and we're watching Metallica play with this Chinese piano prodigy named Ling Ling, Lang Lang? think his name is Lang Lang. And I've never liked Metallica ever. Like, it just doesn't compute. said, yeah, no.

Ashanti (37:43.917)
Gotcha.

Ashanti (37:50.446)
You saw him live? No? You didn't like the symphony album, dude? The symphony album was sick. Yeah. They did it with the San Francisco Symphony and it's fucking, I'll send it to you. It's, here we go. This is what we do 90 % of the time, send each other music, but I'll send it over to you. Yeah. I'm sure some people listening to this are going to be like, these fucking idiots. that record is shit, but I like it. It's a good record.

Josh (37:55.708)
I should try it. I haven't really gone super deep into the catalog. Okay. All right. Yeah. Yeah. Said it. Said it. I want my mind to be changed. I want my mind to be changed.

Josh (38:12.242)
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, the fuck you talking about? All right. Well, I'll listen. Um, anyway, so watching Metallica and I don't like it as I have experienced with every other Metallica listening experience that we go back into the green room, the green rooms in, um, it's in like the Lakers, probably not the Lakers. It's like the visiting team, like locker room, whatever it's kind of how it works in the rooms. It's at a, uh, a staple center and what used to be. And all the different groups have like.

Ashanti (38:21.801)
You

Ashanti (38:30.786)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Ashanti (38:35.787)
Mm -hmm.

Josh (38:40.440)
You're in your kind of green room, but it's like curtains in between everybody. And so I'm back there with my friend Greg and I'm like, man, I don't know. I just don't fucking understand Metallica. It's never fucking made sense to me. I don't fucking get it. I think it sounds fucking terrible. There's something to that effect. And I was like, all right, I gotta take a piss. And I opened the curtains and fucking Lars, the drummer for Metallica, like literally sitting right there, right there.

Ashanti (38:43.811)
Mm

Ashanti (38:52.298)
Haha

Ashanti (38:57.506)
You

Ashanti (39:4.558)
Yeah

Josh (39:8.958)
like inches from me. And I'm like, my face must have gone white, but Lars turned to me and he goes, man, you guys sounded great up there. Yeah, you threw me, I was like, oh fuck. And then I went to take a piss and I'm in this empty like Lakers locker room pissing in a urinal and Kendrick Lamar comes running in just like.

Ashanti (39:12.430)
So did you stand on business or what? like.

Ashanti (39:22.316)
He fucking one -upped you, bro.
That's amazing. That's absolutely amazing.

Josh (39:37.984)
covered in fucking different colored paint and starts scrubbing it off his face. Anyway, I was pissing in the earl next to a multi -colored tie -dye Kendrick. So he had been on stage in the Magic Dragons, that was the magic that they were doing and they shot him all with these colored paint cans. Anyway, that was a funny story.

Ashanti (39:42.892)
Mm. Holy shit.

Ashanti (39:58.758)
Oh, gotcha. That was like the, yeah. That's absolutely hilarious, Yeah. I had a, it's funny. had a, not similarly at all, but I've had a lot of odd stories, but one that sticks out in this talking is when I was doing the, the Uncluded record, which is,

Josh (40:11.977)
I bet.

Ashanti (40:23.554)
Why is my brain gone right now? Kimya Dawson and Aesop Rock, their group together included, which was an interesting record for a hip hop label to put out. we had to go out and do, know, Apple did this thing like every quarter when you had a record coming out, you'd go out and perform for them, you know what I mean? For the Apple people or whatever. And Sheryl Crow was headlining it. And I don't know what happened to me, man, but.

Josh (40:26.737)
Not yet.

Josh (40:32.594)
Yeah, for sure.

Josh (40:42.389)
Right, right, right.

Ashanti (40:52.948)
Cheryl Crowe is actually unbelievably gorgeous in person, dude. Like, yeah, and she's this total fucking sweetheart, dude. Total fucking sweetheart. Not my type at all in real life. But like just seeing her in real life, I was like, Oh my god, she was so fucking cool. Right. And I don't know, man. I think she made both me and ace nervous. I got super nervous. I went up to do my little speech and fuck the whole thing up. While Jay Bird's looking at me just laughing like I don't. Yeah.

Josh (40:56.570)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you were over you've been overcome by the spirit

Josh (41:4.648)
Yeah, in that moment.

Josh (41:18.016)
Come on, come on.

Ashanti (41:20.706)
But if I'm not mistaken, I feel like ASAP was joking. He was like, I think I'm gonna try to hit on her. She's not with, I was like, go for it, dude. But yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude, she got on stage with just her and a guitar, no fucking tricks, and she banged that shit out, Like that shit had me, like I don't even listen to Shown Crow, but I listen to that, you know what I mean? That's funny. But I've also had the opposite experience than you with Metallica with...

Josh (41:27.815)
Oh, Lance? She was in Lance. Yeah, yeah. From Lance to Aesop Rock.

Josh (41:37.898)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.

Ashanti (41:52.377)
Oh my God, they put out a record name. Oh, my brain has gone out. God, they're an 80s band. Oh, fuck it. I'll move on from that. I'll edit that part out.

Josh (42:3.584)
Alright, cool. Yeah, that up. Cut that. Wasn't there an Ev -Cheryl Crow intersection? I feel like Ev got like, I have a memory of him telling me Cheryl Crow babysat into the kid or something. Did I make that up?

Ashanti (42:12.192)
He totally told me, yes, baby, Crowe was his babysitter. Nope, you did not make that up. I mean, you got like, so Ev's got an interesting background. You know what I mean? Like his, his, his mom was an actress. His dad was an actor. You know, he was, his mom became a photographer. Like he kind of grew up in it. So like he's been around it. So he like, he's got a weird, you know what I mean? Like he's still kind like, he knows Ronda Rousey. You know what I mean? Like you're just like.

Josh (42:24.489)
Yeah.

Josh (42:30.462)
Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (42:36.883)
Yeah.
Yep. Yep. Yep.

Ashanti (42:40.748)
Just an interesting character. and I don't know if you knew too, Al went to Beverly Hills High. So he like knows hella fucking people as well. Scott Kahn was obviously in a group with the Hooligans back in the day, all that good stuff. Yeah, what?

Josh (42:46.750)
I did know that. I did know that. Yeah.
Yep. Yep.
It is crazy just living down here. Like you realize like the walls between like the, um, the fake world and the real world and the music world and like it's just, everyone's just kind of in the mix here. it, it like starts to get like normalized in a way that's pretty disorienting when you actually think of.

Ashanti (43:8.302)
Yeah, everyone's in the mix. It's really weird. I mean, that's the reason why I like obviously stayed up in the North Bay or up here or not the North Bay, but the Bay Area, because I was like, I can be in LA in 45 minutes or six hours if I want. And you know what I mean? I'm going to chill. I'm going to chill. So, so two things and then we'll wrap up.

Josh (43:17.497)
Yeah, stay away.

Josh (43:23.412)
Yep. Yep.

Ashanti (43:35.352)
One of the two last things is like, what is something you would like, want to leave to the people? Like what's the thing you want to leave with people?

Josh (43:45.198)
Oh man, do I have anything to offer? I would say...

Ashanti (43:48.763)
I feel like you have a lot to offer. It's just about getting it out. Yeah.

Josh (43:52.544)
You got at this earlier when you were talking about the way that music moves now and the way the artists move now and how people aren't having to grind it out in the same way. And that you don't have that experience of getting in front of 10 people and 100 people and 200 people, whatever. And there's a lot of this going from your bedroom to the arena in a way that it cuts out the middle part. And I think that

Ashanti (43:58.488)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Ashanti (44:4.589)
Mm

Ashanti (44:11.138)
Yeah.

Ashanti (44:17.667)
Mm

Josh (44:22.452)
the value and you got to this too, the value of taking L's is cannot be overstated. I was listening, was a Joe Rogan interviewed Adam Sandler a couple of days ago and I was listening to that interview and Adam Sandler was just talking about the necessity of delusional self -confidence even when you're objectively like

Ashanti (44:27.170)
Mm -hmm.
as humongous as humongous dude

Ashanti (44:47.672)
Mm

Josh (44:51.582)
bad at something. And that, you know, you can know that you have room to grow and you can know like, delusional self confidence doesn't mean that like, you think that what you're doing right now like is on like, like a global level or whatever. But delusional self confidence, at least in my experience, like is is what is what fuels you to keep going even when the world like doesn't really like get you, you know.

Ashanti (44:52.674)
Yeah.

Ashanti (45:7.340)
Right.

Ashanti (45:18.946)
Get what you're doing.

Josh (45:20.212)
Yeah. And I just think that that ingredient, whether it shows up in a touring atmosphere or shows up in like, you know, posting music that nobody hears, like, or releasing shit that like doesn't get listened to or whatever, like the necessity of just continuing to show up every day and treat this like a job and believe in yourself and go, go like beyond what is reasonable. Like, you know.

Ashanti (45:29.656)
Mm

Ashanti (45:47.341)
Mm

Josh (45:50.144)
This is all sort of coming full circle, but like to that sort of point about being a cause 15 years ago, like there's been a lot of signs for me in the last 15 years that I should do something else. Um, and I haven't listened to any of them and, it like, worked, you know, it's not to say it works out for everybody. And it's not to say like, I'm like, I'm set, like I gotta keep working. But I do think that like, if you keep going and keep working and if you have a, like a modicum of talent, you're going to be fucking fine.

Ashanti (45:58.264)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Josh (46:19.112)
Like the hard work aspect and the like pushing through adversity aspect and the, the, just staying focused aspect is like, I don't know. I think that's the most important thing to me. Like the kids that I grew up with that were the most talented musicians, they're not winning right now. And I think they're not winning because like they didn't have to work that hard, you know? And I think it is that hard work. mean, some, know, you do see like the prodigies like rise to the top for sure. But I think more often than not, like it's.

Ashanti (46:33.624)
Mm -hmm. No.

Ashanti (46:39.544)
Yeah.

Josh (46:47.824)
It's the people that were like pretty good that also like gave up everything are the ones that did end up winning.

Ashanti (46:53.004)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I could not going to name any names, but there's plenty of people that I've it actually helped me to be able to assess this as I moved forward in my career. like, there's plenty of people who are unbelievable. Like, there's more talent than you could even. But they just always got in their own way. And like, it's pretty easy to assess now, like, oh, this is going to be a problem. I'm going to go ahead and step out, step away from that or whatever the case is.

Josh (47:3.370)
Yeah.

Josh (47:9.301)
Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. For sure.

Ashanti (47:19.394)
But yeah, totally agree. And then my last thing for you is, and I'll chop this up. If you don't mind saying something cool about Turnwheel, I don't know. You don't have to, but.

Josh (47:30.598)
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'll say, hey, it's been so dope seeing you like so focused and dedicated to this vision. yeah, I'll say too, everything I'm saying right now is not, I have not been paid to say this. I mean it, I mean, it's been such a beautiful thing to see you take this from like, I mean, you've been at this for years and you had a clear vision based on experiences you had, you saw the fucking, the need for this thing.

Ashanti (47:47.116)
Yeah.

Ashanti (47:53.614)
Mm

Ashanti (47:59.596)
Hmm.

Josh (48:0.116)
And you started to build it and it's just been, it's been so beautiful to see. Like I'm proud of you. I'm proud of the, the, the, not just the vision, I mean, to the fucking point about working hard and pushing through adversity and shit. Like, like you're, you're just, you're on a path with this thing and it's really dope to see. Um, so yeah, I think that's amazing. And then I also think the world needs it. think that, you know, there's, there's so many inefficiencies and there's so many middlemen in these spaces and there's so many people that are like.

Ashanti (48:5.262)
Appreciate it.

Ashanti (48:18.626)
Yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah, it's.

Josh (48:30.608)
Um, that have been grandfathered into situations where they're taking cuts that really should be going to the artists and the crew. Um, there's a lot of people positioned in between where the dollar starts and where the dollar ends up. And, uh, I really think what you're doing can cut out some of those like intermediaries in a way that will benefit ultimately benefit the artists. And I think that's really dope.

Ashanti (48:33.603)
Mm

Ashanti (48:39.992)
Mm

Ashanti (48:58.284)
Yeah, appreciate it. Yeah, it's not, it hasn't been an easy road, but by any stretch of the imagination, obviously I knew the music industry pretty well, but I don't know the tech industry. So like learning all of that and like just being a part of that it's been definitely unbelievably interesting. And every

Josh (49:4.862)
Yeah.

Josh (49:10.334)
Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Josh (49:17.652)
But bro, you packed up and you moved to fucking San Francisco and you're building a fucking app and like, that's fucking crazy. That's really dope. Yeah.

Ashanti (49:24.802)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, I, you know how it is. You don't really think about these things when you're doing it. Do you know what I mean? You're just doing it. Um, and it's like, it's starting to feel like every day I'm waking up like, ah, all right. I'm like excited to get to the task at hand for the day and work with the team and have like,

Josh (49:31.326)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.

Josh (49:41.118)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.

Ashanti (49:47.564)
you know, I want them to message me. like, you know, of course, on the weekends, I shut it down. I'm like, don't call me. Don't text me. Don't do anything. and I tell them, go spend time with your family. Like, stop. Don't worry about this. It's my job to worry about it on the weekends. But it's just really fun to to be working on this and working on. mean, look, man, I never was as many times as I tried to run away from music. It's impossible. You know what I mean? Like, I'm going to be there and I'm to be involved in some way, or form. It's just not.

Josh (49:50.228)
Yeah,

Josh (49:58.538)
Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (50:11.114)
Yeah, yeah, it's there.

Ashanti (50:17.474)
It's not possible not to be so. But word, yo man, I really, really appreciate you coming on. I'm so, I was just so excited to get that you said, yeah, and you were down to come chat. You're probably, you are definitely one of my favorite people in all the years of doing this kind of work. I think just because you're a.

Josh (50:24.628)
Oh man, thanks for having me.

Ashanti (50:39.862)
your personality overall and just your general like, we tend to always be very on a very similar wavelength when it comes to discussions and things of that nature. So you always been one of my favorite people. Cool. What's next for you?

Josh (50:47.552)
feel that, I feel that, I feel that.

Josh (50:57.120)
Man, I'm working on finishing a record with this rapper named Samara Sin. I think I sent you some of her shit. Okay, I'll resend. She's amazing. She's like, yeah, one of the best artists I've encountered in a long time. So yeah, working with her. What else is going on? We are working to set up like a...

Ashanti (51:2.442)
Mm -hmm. You did? No, no, no. Send it. Yeah, send it. Yeah.

Ashanti (51:15.554)
Very interested in hearing.

Josh (51:26.046)
distribution situations so we can start kind of putting out music.
basically set ourselves up as a distributor so we can start releasing music from folks. I mean, my whole thing, right, I mean, I'm working with a ton of artists, a lot of them I really fuck with, but I think my thing right now is trying to shift into like two different spaces. Like I wanna start to embrace my inner Rick Rubin. Well, I'm trying to make the five -year plan here, because I'm 41, like I can't, you know, like I'm...

Ashanti (51:34.966)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Ashanti (51:40.546)
Mm

Ashanti (51:45.773)
Mm

Ashanti (51:49.610)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Ashanti (51:54.732)
Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (51:58.208)
pretty out of touch with culture now. It's only going to worse.

Ashanti (51:59.980)
Yeah. I don't know if I believe that, I'm sure.

Josh (52:4.786)
I don't, mean, I guess like the, where I've found the most joy and success is in collaboration. And I think that as I get older, my hope is to be able to like, continue to like hold space and create space for like other people and like younger people and like, just to kind of like have a very collaborative environment. And I've found, I've found a lot of, uh, success these days and like kind of coming in with like,

Ashanti (52:12.130)
Mm -hmm.

Ashanti (52:19.266)
Mm.

Ashanti (52:22.539)
Mm

Ashanti (52:26.051)
Yeah.

Josh (52:34.706)
Like the knowledge that I can help people finish things and the knowledge that I can help people sort of like, you know, piece things together and get just feedback. I'm providing feedback constantly. that.

Ashanti (52:37.176)
Mm

Ashanti (52:45.004)
Bro, the, you really, I mean, you know you're like one of the most ultimate executive producers on the planet, right? Like, yeah, that's what you're like. It's a flawless thing. You know what I mean? It's funny because everybody I end up working with, I'm like, oh, we should just go to Buddha. Because like, it's just different with you, You know what I mean? So, yeah.

Josh (52:49.876)
That's what I want to do. That's what I want to do.

Josh (52:55.489)
Yeah. No, thanks for saying that. Yeah.

Josh (53:2.221)
For sure, for sure. Yeah, no, I appreciate you that. So yeah, I'm just trying to embrace that and then kind of like set some pieces in motion and really like have infrastructure in place within the next like five years or so that can allow me to like participate in different parts of the food chain that hopefully will lay groundwork for like the longer, longer term, if that makes sense.

Ashanti (53:22.317)
Mm

Ashanti (53:28.428)
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I do. I know exactly how that works. Word, man. Well, I really appreciate you coming on. was a pleasure to have you. I hope you, you know, hope you enjoy the rest of your day. You're unfortunately going to have to see me in a few weeks anyway. I'll be, I'll be pulling up and doing donuts in front of your house. Word. Well, we'll talk soon, my friend. Yeah.

Josh (53:32.180)
Yeah, yeah.

Josh (53:36.872)
Yeah, what a joy.

Josh (53:46.410)
That's all right. That's all right.

Josh (53:51.640)
That's the whole other story. Yeah, yeah. All right, my friend.